# What's the evidence that Bannon is a white supremacist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571 "2017-01-30T07:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/21 "2017-01-30T09:47:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I don’t see white nationalism on its own being objectionable. Policies and ideologies that it’s adherents put out? Certainly can be objectionable. First, the two things (nationalism and policy) go hand in hand, but second any kind of “nationalism” generally attempts to put one’s own group ahead of others. Thirdly, given that whites are really already rather on top in the US, their self-promotion has the power therefore to crush non-white groups utterly (the entire purpose of a “white nationalist” group is thus rather redundant since they began in a position of power and have remained so). And finally, while I accept your examples of divisions in mono-ethnic societies, they’re hardly great examples of coexistence; ones based on melanin levels are intrinsically racist and thus even less acceptable to peaceful society. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/22 "2017-01-30T09:48:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > It was Jefferson and Adams, not Jefferson and Hamilton. The latter pair were famous political enemies, but Hamilton’s philosophy was all Adamsian. As many if not most of the premises of the Republicans are today. (Yes, I know there was bad blood between Jefferson and Adams as well, but the pitched political battles were mostly with Hamilton.) Based on the Federalist papers, I think it’s fair to say that Hamilton’s political philosophy was “Makin’ Money”. The man positively gushes when the subject comes around. I don’t know that I’ve read anything from Adams, but if that’s his wheelhouse then I would agree. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/23 "2017-01-30T10:15:13Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Serbs and Croats generally agree on at least one thing; they are two nations, not a single Serbo-Croat nation. Similarly the two communities in Ireland do identify one another as distinct communities. > > Americans, by contrast, are generally pretty strong on the view that the US is one nation, and that a black American is just as much an American as a white American. White nationalists reject that view. While you may not find that stance objectionable, many will. Apparently 60 million people who voted for Trump share that view. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/24 "2017-01-30T10:57:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What exactly is wrong with being a " white nationalist"? He **is** white as far as I can tell. As opposed to “white supremacist”? Being a nationalist is what exactly is wrong. It’s where we get the word “Nazi” from, after all. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/25 "2017-01-30T11:03:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Being a nationalist is what exactly is wrong. It’s where we get the word “Nazi” from, after all. :dubious: Russian Nationalists are Nazis? Irish Nationalists? Turkish Nationalists Black nationalists? Bengali Nationalist? … ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/26 "2017-01-30T11:43:06Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Being a nationalist is what exactly is wrong. It’s where we get the word “Nazi” from, after all. > [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: > Russian Nationalists are Nazis? > Irish Nationalists? > Turkish Nationalists > Black nationalists? > Bengali Nationalist? > … Neither what I said nor a particularly astute extrapolation of what I said. Nationalism, _per se_, is problematic. [A short, illustrative parable.](http://smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/27 "2017-01-30T11:50:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Given that one of his main writers is a gay Jew, I think it’s reasonable to say that his stated mission of being anti-PC is accurate. That just doesn’t leave much room to argue for anti-semitism and intolerance. Liberal readers simply aren’t able to catch the sarcasm or to think rationally about what is actually being said. > > He may well be a horrible human being, but saying negative things about certain minorities doesn’t always make one a racist. All humans are fallible and “culture” isn’t _de facto_ a good and laudable thing. Though not very many are able to accept that there is such a distinction. And certainly someone who is actively going out of their way to bring up such topics and sensationalize them is going to gather a lot of racists to his feet. So, Bannon was CEO at Breitbart for the lulz? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/28 "2017-01-30T11:58:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Apparently 60 million people who voted for Trump share that view. Where are you getting that? White nationalism is objectionable because it implies that America is a nation of, by, and for white people. That’s anathema to every founding principle of the United States. Indeed, any kind of skin-color-based nationalism anywhere in the world is reprehensible. And, specifically, in the United States, the idea that any one racial group is a “nation” separate from other Americans is disgusting. There is only one nationality, American, and everyone is equally American. The only circumstance in which nationalism might be seen as somewhat okay is if one oppressed nation is seeking independence from an oppressor nation. Once a nation-state is established, no good can come of nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/29 "2017-01-30T12:07:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > White nationalism is objectionable because it implies that America is a nation of, by, and for white people. That’s anathema to every founding principle of the United States. It’s anathema to modern America, but historically, it’s very much in line with American history. The fact is, America was founded on three things: protestant Christianity, capitalism, and racism. I’m not saying it’s right, but those are the facts. I think we had hoped - and maybe even assumed - that we had taken America to a more advanced state in recent decades, creating a more tolerant and humane country. But white christian nationalism is making one final stand, and from its viewpoint, it could be their final chance to save their country as they see it. They’re going to pull out all the stops. We need to understand that. If liberals and democrats want to be successful in defending themselves against this front, they’re going to have to put less emphasis on themselves as individual groups within a democracy and they’re going to have to see themselves as part of a larger tent that necessarily includes some people they might not normally stand shoulder to shoulder with, like politically incorrect blue collar white men, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/30 "2017-01-30T12:09:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: > Russian Nationalists are Nazis? > Irish Nationalists? > Turkish Nationalists > Black nationalists? > Bengali Nationalist? > … Some of them are, some of them aren’t. By it’s very nature, there’s no such thing as universalist nationalism (“Nationalists of the world, unite!”). As a result, each and every nationalist movement and school of thought is different, depending on its history and circumstances. Bengali nationalists, I’m assuming, aren’t generally racists. Irish nationalists aren’t either, but they often have religious issues. Arab nationalists are different from Egyptian nationalists, even though the groups can overlap. Zionists - Jewish nationalists - have plenty of their own baggage. American white nationalists are racists. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/31 "2017-01-30T12:21:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Some of them are, some of them aren’t. > > By it’s very nature, there’s no such thing as universalist nationalism (“Nationalists of the world, unite!”). As a result, each and every nationalist movement and school of thought is different, depending on its history and circumstances. Bengali nationalists, I’m assuming, aren’t generally racists. Irish nationalists aren’t either, but they often have religious issues. Arab nationalists are different from Egyptian nationalists, even though the groups can overlap. Zionists - Jewish nationalists - have plenty of their own baggage. American white nationalists are racists. Nationalism by its very nature is exclusionary in effect, no matter how high minded and civic centered its proponents may be. And its often defined in opposition to another entity. So, basically all nationalism is racist by that standard. So why should American style White Nationalism be thought of as anything less valid than the others? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/32 "2017-01-30T12:27:52Z")
[Legal permanent residents being stopped at the border](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=817651) That was Bannon. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/33 "2017-01-30T12:35:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So; White nationalism is going to always lead to: genocide of Non white people? It’s s bit of a stretch. No, of course not, but, in America, at least, “white nationalist” is often a code for white supremacist. Groups that call themselves white nationalist tend to believe in the supremacy of the white race over the black, and that there’s an international Zionist conspiracy to control the economy, and generally support explicitly discriminatory policies against non-whites. So whether Bannon actually is a white nationalist is one question, but generally, when Americans use the term, they mean white supremicist/racist/neo-Nazi. This is distinct, by the way from American nationalism and Americanism, which believes in the supremacy of American culture and values, but doesn’t generally have a strong racial component. American nationalism, for instance, believes that people of all races can and should become citizens of the US and enjoy equal rights by virtue of their citizenship and loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/34 "2017-01-30T12:41:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Nationalism by its very nature is exclusionary in effect, no matter how high minded and civic centered its proponents may be. And its often defined in opposition to another entity. So, basically all nationalism is racist by that standard. So why should American style White Nationalism be thought of as anything less valid than the others? Because of the history of white nationalism in America, particularly as it pertains to the subject of slavery. That’s my point - you can’t discuss nationalism out of context. American nationalism is different because American history is different, just as Bengali nationalism is different because Indian history is different. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/35 "2017-01-30T12:49:57Z")
White supremacist or just someone who published white supremacists for profit? What a question. [Bannon has moved on considerably](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/stephen-bannon-donald-trump-national-security-council.html) from being Trump’s favorite handler: > [@](#): > > The whirlwind first week of Donald J. Trump’s presidency had all the bravura hallmarks of a Stephen K. Bannon production. > > It started with the doom-hued inauguration homily to “American carnage” in United States cities co-written by Mr. Bannon, followed a few days later by his “shut up” message to the news media. The week culminated with a blizzard of executive orders, mostly hatched by Mr. Bannon’s team and the White House policy adviser, Stephen Miller, aimed at disorienting the “enemy,” fulfilling campaign promises and distracting attention from Mr. Trump’s less than flawless debut. > > But the defining moment for Mr. Bannon came Saturday night in the form of an executive order giving the rumpled right-wing agitator a full seat on the “principals committee” of the National Security Council — while downgrading the roles of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the director of national intelligence, who will now attend only when the council is considering issues in their direct areas of responsibilities. It is a startling elevation of a political adviser, to a status alongside the secretaries of state and defense, and over the president’s top military and intelligence advisers… The toad is utterly unfit for that role. (The SPLC explains White Nationalism [here](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist).) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/36 "2017-01-30T13:02:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A nation is always a manufactured construct. Serbs and Croats have little differences, did not stop the wars in the 1990’s. Black Americans share language, religion and culture with white Americans, yet are differentiated. In your own homeland, you have ethnically identical peoples fighting long wars over different views of nationhood and identity. > > In a foreigners perspective, Whites in the US absolutely seem to be and be thought of as a distinct entity from others. I don’t see white nationalism on its own being objectionable. Policies and ideologies that it’s adherents put out? Certainly can be objectionable. White nationalism (e.g. the belief that America or another particular country is or should be a “white” nation) is just a milder form of white supremacism. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/37 "2017-01-30T13:35:09Z")
What’s wrong with “white power”? Doesn’t everyone want to be powerful? Am I supposed to march around yelling “white weakness”? And why can’t I raise my arm to salute? I’m only allowed to lift my arm to a certain angle just because of my race? Please, ye best and brightest, help me understand. I’ve scratched my head so much, my scalp is bleeding! ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/38 "2017-01-30T15:34:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So; White nationalism is going to always lead to: genocide of Non white people? It’s s bit of a stretch. It’s not a stretch, it’s the _definition_. > [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: > Russian Nationalists are Nazis? > Irish Nationalists? > Turkish Nationalists > Black nationalists? > Bengali Nationalist? > … Just “race” nationalists. White nationalist = white supremacist. They are the same, always have been. Maybe you’re not American, so you don’t know. If you are, you’re being purposefully obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/39 "2017-01-30T16:05:30Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Nationalism by its very nature is exclusionary in effect, no matter how high minded and civic centered its proponents may be. And its often defined in opposition to another entity. So, basically all nationalism is racist by that standard. So why should American style White Nationalism be thought of as anything less valid than the others? All nationalism is exclusionary and ethnocentrist, but not all of it is racist. White nationalism is explicitly racist - it’s in the fricking name. And all nationalism is shit to begin with, so there’s a limbo competition going on there… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571/40 "2017-01-30T19:07:17Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What’s wrong with “white power”? Doesn’t everyone want to be powerful? Am I supposed to march around yelling “white weakness”? And why can’t I raise my arm to salute? I’m only allowed to lift my arm to a certain angle just because of my race? > > Please, ye best and brightest, help me understand. I’ve scratched my head so much, my scalp is bleeding! Mind you don’t lift your arm _too_ high when you’re scratching your head. Also – your _scalp_? you want the American Indian nationalism thread, over yonder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-evidence-that-bannon-is-a-white-supremacist/778571.md?page=3)