# What's the gayest country?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 26, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192 "2011-08-26T16:30:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/41 "2011-08-27T22:41:07Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> And the mid-century Germans went about intentionally exterminating all the gays they could get their hands on. If accurate statistics can be had, and if Germany’s per-capita of gays is lower today, it would be a step in answering the question of whether being gay is a strictly genetic phenomenon. Because, you see, their gays would have been dead instead of reproducing.
Well, if stats aren’t availible for Germany, then it’s unlikely you’ll notice a statistically significant change in Saudi Arabia, as they only execute a tiny number of gays.
> [@](#):
>
> If I had to choose between a wife and a husband in Saudi Arabia, I’d pick the chick anytime
Are you male or female?
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/42 "2011-08-27T22:47:07Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> Is it even a question. Afghanistan of course. And if the question was on pedophilla, sex with animals and liking it doggy style it would still be Afghanistan; the land where everything but heterosexual sex won’t raise an eyebrow.
Uh… cite?
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/43 "2011-08-27T23:02:19Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#):
>
> Uh… cite?
> **[Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/afghan-men-struggle-with-sexual-identity-study-finds)**
>
> An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/44 "2011-08-27T23:14:23Z")
> [@ecoaster](#):
>
> has anyone mentioned Paragay?
Can’t be them, there’s only 2 gays there
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/45 "2011-08-27T23:44:33Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> [Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/)
I don’t think Fox News exactly has credibility when it comes to talking about this (or any) topic…
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/46 "2011-08-27T23:50:30Z")
It dose about this, topic as it is something which is well known.
Another [link](http://dalje.com/en-world/video--gay-is-ok-in-afghanistan/130563).
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/47 "2011-08-28T03:54:24Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> And, are transsexuals gay?
Some are gay. Some are straight. Some are bi. And some are asexual.
It can’t be said enough (because so many people still don’t get it): Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things, and they vary independently of each other.
A trans woman who likes men is straight. If she likes women, she’s gay. In fact, that works exactly the same as it does for non-trans people. The principle is that trans women are women, and trans men are men. It isn’t complicated. A trans man who likes men is gay. A trans man who likes women is straight. How is this even in question?
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/48 "2011-08-28T04:06:06Z")
At least according to Wikipedia, Kathoey (ladyboys) refers to both transsexuals and more femme gay men. In the phillipines, the word Bakla is used and again refers gay men and transsexuals, with Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)
> **[Kathoey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey)**
>
> Kathoey or katoey (Khmer: ខ្ទើយ; khtəəy, Lao: ກະເທີຍ; ka thœ̄i, Thai: กะเทย; RTGS: kathoei; Thai pronunciation: \[kàtʰɤːj\]) is an identity used by some people in Cambodia, Laos and Thailand, whose identities in English may be best described as transgender women in some cases, or effeminate gay men in other cases. These people are not traditionally transgender, however are seen as a third sex, being one body containing two souls. Transgender women in Thailand mostly use terms other than kathoey w...
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/49 "2011-08-28T04:41:16Z")
> [@Antinor01](#):
>
> Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)
This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don’t see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words _transsexual_ or _gay_, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/50 "2011-08-28T04:51:30Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don’t see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words _transsexual_ or _gay_, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.
I agree from an american perspective. The point is that it’s hard to answer the op because of cultural differences like that.
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### Author:  [@horsetech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horsetech)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/51 "2011-08-28T04:57:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> Can’t be them, there’s only 2 gays there
More likely to be Urugay.
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### Author:  [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/52 "2011-08-28T05:31:23Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> Is it even a question. Afghanistan of course. And if the question was on pedophilla, sex with animals and liking it doggy style it would still be Afghanistan; the land where everything but heterosexual sex won’t raise an eyebrow.
> [@AK84](#):
>
> [Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/)
> [@AK84](#):
>
> It dose about this, topic as it is something which is well known.
> Another [link](http://dalje.com/en-world/video--gay-is-ok-in-afghanistan/130563).
As has been pointed out, you’re looking at it way to simplistically. Regardless, nothing you cited backs up that Afghanistan has the highest percentage of homosexuality.
Due to the oppression and seclusion (segregation?) of women, gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be _complicated_. There’s a flip-side to the coin of \*Bacha Bazi \*boys - [_Bacha Posh_ girls](http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/in-afghanistan-boys-are-prized-and-girls-live-the-part-53594). (Pretty interesting article, BTW)
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### Author:  [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/53 "2011-08-28T05:56:29Z")
> [@voltaire](#):
>
> Due to the oppression and seclusion (segregation?) of women, gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be _complicated_. There’s a flip-side to the coin of \*Bacha Bazi \*boys - [_Bacha Posh_ girls](http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/in-afghanistan-boys-are-prized-and-girls-live-the-part-53594). (Pretty interesting article, BTW)
But homosocial societies and practice do generate more “gay sex”. So, countries that live along those lines will have more “gays” (even though this would be a very large definition of gay, as it would include otherwise straight people that get on gay sex, just to have sex, or even have a relationship). Afghanistan ranks pretty high in separation between the sexes.
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### Author:  [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/54 "2011-08-28T08:44:10Z")
> [@Antinor01](#):
>
> At least according to Wikipedia, Kathoey (ladyboys) refers to both transsexuals and more femme gay men. In the phillipines, the word Bakla is used and again refers gay men and transsexuals, with Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)
>
> [Kathoey - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey)
Transvestites have not had surgery.
Transsexuals have had sex change surgery.
In my years of living in the Philippines I met and saw many transvestites, but I am not aware of many transsexuals. Most of them just cannot afford the surgery even if they want it.
All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla’s never wanted other Bakla’s, they only wanted men that looked straight.
Some of the Thai Katoeys look so much like women that it is difficult to know.
But, most Baklas appear more masculine to me. Most of them look like men with makeup.
In the Philippines the lesbians are referred to as “tomboys”, and are considered gay, even the ones that dress and act like men.
There is a lesbian bar next to a favorite restaurant of mine and the couples almost always consisted of one “butch” and one “femme”.
Maybe this is all too simplistic and not very PC, but are just my observations in Thailand and the Phils.
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### Author:  [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/55 "2011-08-28T08:56:07Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don’t see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words _transsexual_ or _gay_, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.
America is just a small fraction of the world.
In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.
But, my experience in Thailand and the Philippines is that you can see them everyday almost everywhere that you may go.
I am now in Bangkok on business, and while I was having lunch and walking around MBK mall today I easily spotted 5 or 6 transvestites or transsexuals.
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### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/56 "2011-08-28T17:56:33Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> Some are gay. Some are straight. Some are bi. And some are asexual.
>
> It can’t be said enough (because so many people still don’t get it): Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things, and they vary independently of each other.
>
> A trans woman who likes men is straight. If she likes women, she’s gay. In fact, that works exactly the same as it does for non-trans people. The principle is that trans women are women, and trans men are men. It isn’t complicated. A trans man who likes men is gay. A trans man who likes women is straight. How is this even in question?
It is confusing because it brings up issues of “Thinking makes it so… or does it?” The trans I have in mind is still, at this point, anatomically male, albeit under the influence of estrogen. Otherwise they try to get on as a woman. Only recently have they started dating men. So, at this point are they a gay transvestite until their surgery goes all the way, at which point we deem they are a woman and straight from then on? Or are they a woman now, anatomy notwithstanding? I don’t mean to be insulting, I just find it confusing.
Sex orientation and gender identity seem to get tied up with each other in this case. I guess what you are saying is that if a person identifies as a woman then they are a woman, even if they have a ding-a-ling and have sex with men. If they identify as a man and have sex with men, then there are two things going on 1) they male-identify and 2) they’re gay. A man who thinks they are a woman and has sex with men 1)female identifies and 2) therefore isn’t gay even though 3) it looks just like gay sex.
Do I have it right?
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/57 "2011-08-28T18:20:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> It is confusing because it brings up issues of “Thinking makes it so… or does it?” The trans I have in mind is still, at this point, anatomically male, albeit under the influence of estrogen. Otherwise they try to get on as a woman. Only recently have they started dating men. So, at this point are they a gay transvestite until their surgery goes all the way, at which point we deem they are a woman and straight from then on? Or are they a woman now, anatomy notwithstanding? I don’t mean to be insulting, I just find it confusing.
>
> Sex orientation and gender identity seem to get tied up with each other in this case. I guess what you are saying is that if a person identifies as a woman then they are a woman, even if they have a ding-a-ling and have sex with men. If they identify as a man and have sex with men, then there are two things going on 1) they male-identify and 2) they’re gay. A man who thinks they are a woman and has sex with men 1)female identifies and 2) therefore isn’t gay even though 3) it looks just like gay sex.
>
> Do I have it right?
(Second edit: ) Yes.
Going with my four-fold identity scheme above, you have
1. **Sex** : Male
2. **Gender** : Female (not male, not gay)
3. **Sexual orientation** : Homosexual (man \> man)
4. **Gender orientation** : Heterosexual (female \> male)
The estrogen and operations are an attempt to get #1 to line up with #2. It’s easiest for the public at large to lump “unusual sexuality” and / or “unusual gender identity” in with “gay” as Not Us, but it isn’t really accurate. Transsexual just means someone whose gender and sex are opposite. In this case, sexual attraction lines up with gender, not sex; in other cases, it’s the reverse. I would say that she (because in case of a conflict the pronoun should go with the gender) is heterosexual. That’s because as an outsider my concern is how people identify themselves socially, not biologically. If I were her doctor or her partner I might worry about the biology, but since I’m not it’s pretty straightforward, if unusual.
ETA: I’m sure there are a large number of people going “but penis + penis **can’t** be heterosexual!” so I repeat: heterosexual gender orientation, which is what matters to the rest of us; homosexual sex (biological) orientation.
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### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/58 "2011-08-28T19:10:47Z")
Thanks, Dr. Drake. I want to avoid pissing this person off next time she’s around, and don’t exactly want to corner her with these specific questions either.
It makes the OP question tough as others point out. Are situationally-gay people (those in repressive societies) therefore gay too? Or bi? If massive social pressures result in more homosexual behavior rather than arising as a matter of preference, is there a distinction?
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/59 "2011-08-28T20:42:36Z")
> [@horsetech](#):
>
> More likely to be Urugay.
Then there’s only 1!
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### Author:  [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/60 "2011-08-28T22:11:33Z")
> [@voltaire](#):
>
> gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be _complicated_.
Can’t we just accept that gender roles are complicated everywhere and proceed with the original question?
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