# What's the gayest country?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 26, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192 "2011-08-26T16:30:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/61 "2011-08-29T00:09:58Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#):
>
> All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla’s never wanted other Bakla’s, they only wanted men that looked straight.
See, to me that sounds like the very definition of heterosexuality. Rejecting your own gender for a straight person of a different gender. And yet they call it gay.
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### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/62 "2011-08-29T01:56:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Vatican City?
Because, while the other countries mentioned are all very nice, the Vatican City is simply divine?
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### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/63 "2011-08-29T02:43:53Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#):
>
> [Saudi Arabia](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)
>
> I’m serious.
Seconded.
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### Author:  [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/64 "2011-08-29T03:32:05Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#):
>
> But homosocial societies and practice do generate more “gay sex”. So, countries that live along those lines will have more “gays” (even though this would be a very large definition of gay, as it would include otherwise straight people that get on gay sex, just to have sex, or even have a relationship). Afghanistan ranks pretty high in separation between the sexes.
Exactly - just like prison. Is an otherwise heterosexual person “gay” because they engage in sexual activities with the same gender when that is all that’s available to them, but then once they are released from prison (or get married, in the case of Afghanistan) they go back to having sex with the opposite gender?
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#):
>
> Can’t we just accept that gender roles are complicated everywhere and proceed with the original question?
Certainly, we can - I was just highlighting that fact while responding to an unfounded assertion. But because of how complicated the definition of “gay” is, and because of the fact that there are no dependable statistics for every country in the world, a definitive answer to the OP is pretty much impossible.
I’m kind of surprised this thread is still in GQ… think I’ll report my own post and see if a mod agrees that this belongs elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/65 "2011-08-29T06:55:45Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#):
>
> And I don’t think orientation is usually asked about on a census (though it may report prevalence of same-sex couples living together, which might be a helpful metric - again though only in countries that tolerate it).
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> Flawed metholologies
You may be able to find those calculations some groups ran using the last Spanish Census Report, where they treated any household with two same-gender ‘not-directly related’ people as being “a gay couple”. The definition of ‘not directly related’ being, in this case, “further away that parent/child”, they’d included not only students but also siblings, grandparent/grandchild, uncle/nephew… the joke I’ve heard most often re. that debacle was “by that definition, you usual 3-4 students flat is an orgy and student dorms are porn studios”.
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/66 "2011-08-29T09:28:46Z")
The answer is whatever country the Flintstones live in. After all, they’re always having a “gay old time”.
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### Author:  [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/67 "2011-08-29T09:53:25Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#):
>
> Again, what is the factual basis for this assumption? I don’t get it. Is blonde hair found in consistent proportions across all countries? Average heights? Congenital disorders? Even the [sex ratio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio) at birth is not quite consistent across all countries. So why would we assume that sexual orientation is?
Because sexual orientation is more analogous to left- or right-handedness than to hair color, or to congenital disorders. And lefties occur at a pretty consistent rate across racial and geographic borders, a rate very comparable with same-sex attraction.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/68 "2011-08-29T22:13:00Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> You may be able to find those calculations some groups ran using the last Spanish Census Report, where they treated any household with two same-gender ‘not-directly related’ people as being “a gay couple”. The definition of ‘not directly related’ being, in this case, “further away that parent/child”, they’d included not only students but also siblings, grandparent/grandchild, uncle/nephew… the joke I’ve heard most often re. that debacle was “by that definition, you usual 3-4 students flat is an orgy and student dorms are porn studios”.
LOL, that is one grotesque abuse of statistics. If it had been designed by _agents provocateurs_ to discredit the gay rights movement, it would look just like that.
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### Author:  [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romeo_and_Whatsherface)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/69 "2011-08-30T01:39:06Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#):
>
> In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.
> .
At least, you only _see_ one transvestite who does such a poor job of dressing that he/she is obviously a transvestite.
My ex-husband is a transvestite. I didn’t know until he came out to me 20 years after we were married. (I didn’t divorce him because he was a transvestite, but let me tell you, adjusting to that revelation was hell. You have no _idea_ of the levels on which it affects you, and I’m a pretty accepting gal.) He connected with a lot of other transvestites online, and eventually I met some of his TV friends. I realize this is anecdotal, but one anecdote can shatter a stereotype.
Most transvestites are not gay.
Most transvestites are not and do not become transgendered.
My own theory is that there is a very wide spectrum on gender and normalcy, but that’s another post for another SDMB.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/70 "2011-08-30T01:58:40Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#):
>
> …In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time…
You will if them a lot more frequently if you spend a lot of time in large American cities.
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### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/71 "2011-08-30T03:07:35Z")
> [@voltaire](#):
>
> Exactly - just like prison. Is an otherwise heterosexual person “gay” because they engage in sexual activities with the same gender when that is all that’s available to them, but then once they are released from prison (or get married, in the case of Afghanistan) they go back to having sex with the opposite gender?
They could be an otherwise homosexual person ‘straight’ because they have given into the social pressure to be straight, prison is an escape form that pressure where they are given the leeway they need to pursue relationships they might not otherwise be able to.
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/72 "2011-08-30T03:07:48Z")
> [@Krokodil](#):
>
> Because sexual orientation is more analogous to left- or right-handedness than to hair color, or to congenital disorders.
Why so?
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/73 "2011-08-30T03:09:04Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#):
>
> In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> You will if them a lot more frequently if you spend a lot of time in large American cities.
Particularly West Hollywood. 😃
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/74 "2011-08-30T03:50:41Z")
Are transvestites and transgenders necessarily cissexuals, then? Obviously, a transsexual is going to want to dress and act like their preferred gender and sexual identity, so assigning all three labels to the same person seems a bit overkill.
Also: If a Western woman decided to occasionally dress like a Western man, I don’t know how many people would be able to tell the difference.
And from the confused contradistinction file: “You mean she’s a lesbian _and_ a bisexual?”
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/75 "2011-08-30T04:47:33Z")
Hetero- v. homosexuality is really not that useful a term if your society has three genders.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/76 "2011-08-30T05:30:11Z")
> [@Derleth](#):
>
> Are transvestites and transgenders necessarily cissexuals, then? Obviously, a transsexual is going to want to dress and act like their preferred gender and sexual identity, so assigning all three labels to the same person seems a bit overkill.
The word _transgender_ is so poorly defined, nobody knows exactly what anyone else means by it. The word may be applicable as an umbrella name for various disparate groups to form a political coalition for perceived common goals. But as a designation for an individual, it really tells you nothing about who they are. That’s why I avoid using the word. It rarely brings clarity and more often causes obfuscation.
> [@](#):
>
> And from the confused contradistinction file: “You mean she’s a lesbian _and_ a bisexual?”
There are individual women who are able to experience sexual arousal with respect to both men and women, but nevertheless feel they’re only able to form strong relationships with women, and consequently never date men. Such women are bisexual in theory and de facto lesbian. This is one possible way of falling under both headings at once.
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/77 "2011-08-30T05:37:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> The word _transgender_ is so poorly defined, nobody knows exactly what anyone else means by it. The word may be applicable as an umbrella name for various disparate groups to form a political coalition for perceived common goals. But as a designation for an individual, it really tells you nothing about who they are. That’s why I avoid using the word. It rarely brings clarity and more often causes obfuscation.
OK, but would a transsexual ever be called a transvestite by someone who knew the difference? (I kind of suspected throwing ‘transgender’ in there might muddy things a bit.)
> [@](#):
>
> There are individual women who are able to experience sexual arousal with respect to both men and women, but nevertheless feel they’re only able to form strong relationships with women, and consequently never date men. Such women are bisexual in theory and de facto lesbian. This is one possible way of falling under both headings at once.
For context, the person responsible for that quote wouldn’t understand a blessed word of that lucid explanation. For my own part, I like the terms hetero-, bi-, and homoromantic as distinguished from hetero-, bi-, and homosexual, where the ‘romantic’ part means a relationship that extends beyond the bedroom.
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### Author:  [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/78 "2011-08-30T10:32:49Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#):
>
> Transvestites have not had surgery.
> Transsexuals have had sex change surgery.
>
> In my years of living in the Philippines I met and saw many transvestites, but I am not aware of many transsexuals. Most of them just cannot afford the surgery even if they want it.
>
> All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla’s never wanted other Bakla’s, they only wanted men that looked straight.
>
> Some of the Thai Katoeys look so much like women that it is difficult to know.
> But, most Baklas appear more masculine to me. Most of them look like men with makeup.
>
> In the Philippines the lesbians are referred to as “tomboys”, and are considered gay, even the ones that dress and act like men.
> There is a lesbian bar next to a favorite restaurant of mine and the couples almost always consisted of one “butch” and one “femme”.
>
> Maybe this is all too simplistic and not very PC, but are just my observations in Thailand and the Phils.
It’s not quite as simple as that Homer.
Transsexuals are people who feel they have been born in the wrong body. For example a boy may feel like he should have been be a girl and vice-versa. They are transsexuals whether they have had surgery or not. Usually they have felt this way as long as they can remember (3 or 4 years old in some cases).
Transvestites are those who dress in the clothing of the opposite sex but who do not want to be the other sex. Many transvestites obtain sexual gratification through cross-dressing.
This is actually quite a very simplistic overview - it’s a lot more complicated in real life.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/79 "2011-08-30T13:21:18Z")
> [@Derleth](#):
>
> OK, but would a transsexual ever be called a transvestite by someone who knew the difference?
I’m afraid that happens all the time, out of ignorance and hatred. Or else it’s just “faggot,” because all LGBT people are lumped into the same category by ignorant haters.
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### Author:  [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)
#### Post date: [September 3, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192/80 "2011-09-03T15:11:58Z")
Hi, I’ve created [a flip thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14215267#post14215267)
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-gayest-country/594192.md?page=3)