# What's the harm in letting just anyone officiate at a wedding? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2021, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897 "2021-12-30T04:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/41 "2022-01-02T13:48:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s essentially just a difference in terminology as one is not legally married until the marriage is registered. No, it’s not simply a difference in terminology. In Japan, marriages do not require ceremonies of any sort, religious or at a government office. People can have a ceremony, but it has no legal significance whatsoever. Instead, marriages are simply registered. People decide to get marriage and fill in the paperwork, just the same a one registers a car at the DMV. You commented that in Japan: > [@Monty](#): > > Some places (such as China, Japan, South Korea) specify that a marriage may only be contracted at a designated government office and by a designated government official. is clearly wrong. If you mean that marriages have to be registered at a government office by a specified government official, that’s as meaningless as saying a car needs to be registered at “a government office by a designated government official.” In countries where ceremonies are required, there still in a requirement for the wedding to be registered. So there are two actions. In Japan, only one. This thread is discussing officiating at a wedding and the plan reading of your comment suggests that in Japan, the wedding is performed at a government office. It’s not. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/42 "2022-01-02T17:19:41Z")
I suppose he is talking about European-style marriages, like in Switzerland and France, where a civil servant actually witnesses the couple taking an oath affirming they are married; it’s not just handing in a form. This is the only legal form of marriage, so of course it does not matter if they were hanging out in a church or had any other sort of ceremony/party. But there was a “ceremony” in that the mayor or other civil servant, plus witnesses, were physically there. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/43 "2022-01-02T22:53:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The answer to this and most other social questions is the same: the United States is a soft theocracy. Religion is allowed special privileges. I think that is a bit of hyperbole. Marriage is a civil institution yet for a very large segment of the population it has religious implications. Therefore when you structure laws, you account for how people will want things to happen. So if most people want a priest/pastor/rabbi etc. to officiate their marriage ceremony, the state allows for it. Nothing sinister about any theocracy. And as far as why limit it at all, hell, the state makes people get a license to cut hair. I don’t know why they wouldn’t say that certain people with particular knowledge about what must be done to make a marriage a legal one are the ones we allow to perform those ceremonies. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/44 "2022-01-02T23:26:11Z")
Of course it’s not “just handing in a form”, even in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/45 "2022-01-03T02:14:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think that is a bit of hyperbole. Yes. Soft hyperbole, though. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/46 "2022-01-03T02:24:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I suppose he is talking about European-style marriages, like in Switzerland and France, where a civil servant actually witnesses the couple taking an oath affirming they are married; it’s not just handing in a form. Right. People tend to say “just hand in a form” because of a cultural expectation of what the format of “a wedding” should be. But the “officiant” is there to, well, officialize the act – to stand there in the name of the communal institution (the religious congregation if clergy or the civil society if a civil officer) to bear witness that the communal institution endorses and recognizes this act and that it complies with the requirements for validity. They are no less an officiant if they sit at a desk across from where the participants themselves sit, than if they stand at an altar wearing vestments and waving around holy thotchkes in front of a gathered audience. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Soft hyperbole, though. Nicely played. Style points all around. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/47 "2022-01-03T11:43:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Of course it’s not “just handing in a form”, even in Japan. Cite? How is it not? Specifically? I outlined the steps in my first post, and the only other requirements is to have two witnesses and the necessary paperwork such as the family registrations. However, requiring witnesses does not magically change the nature the process. Here is [the process](https://jp.usembassy.gov/services/marriage/marriage-in-japan/), as explained by the US Embassy. I could link to the Japanese site but it’s in Japanese. > [@](#): > > ### Kon-in Todoke > > You will need to fill out a Kon-in Todoke (request of registration of marriage) with 2 signatures from witnesses of any nationality who are over 20 years old. Our staff cannot help you to prepare the documents or be witnesses. > > The Japanese Government and/or the local municipal office may also have other requirements for your partner. Please check with the appropriate municipal office. > > If your partner is neither Japanese nor American, s/he should also contact his/her Embassy for the marriage procedures needed in their own country. > > ### Get Married > > This is the part of this whole procedure that actually makes you and your partner married. > > Once all the paperwork above is completed, proceed to the appropriate Japanese municipal government office to submit your Kon-in Todoke. Be sure to confirm local marriage procedures and rules directly with municipal government officials. (For example, depending on the jurisdiction, you may be required to submit a certified copy of your birth certificate and its Japanese translation.) As explained above, the process is literally submitting a form. The person checks the form and when it has been accepted than the parties are married. Naturally, the government official must check the form, but that is no different than registering a property or car after a sale. What is "it’s not ‘just handing in a form’ "? > [@JRDelirious](#): > > But the “officiant” is there to, well, officialize the act – to stand there in the name of the communal institution (the religious congregation if clergy or the civil society if a civil officer) to bear witness that the communal institution endorses and recognizes this act and that it complies with the requirements for validity. They are no less an officiant if they sit at a desk across from where the participants themselves sit, than if they stand at an altar wearing vestments and waving around holy thotchkes in front of a gathered audience. Not in Japan (or apparently Korea or Taiwan, as I just googled and found out). Unless you are somehow arguing that the clerk at the DMV is also an “officiant” who is there to “well, officialize the act – to stand there in the name of the communal institution ( ~~the religious congregation if clergy or~~ the civil society if a civil officer) to bear witness that the communal institution endorses and recognizes this act” In many jurisdictions, there are two legal requirements for a wedding to be recognized by the government. First, the official paperwork which must be submitted and accepted by the appropriate government office. In most jurisdiction in the US, people must submit the necessary paperwork and then receive a “license” which must be signed by an “officiant,” (religious or civil) and then resubmitted. There could be jurisdictions in the US which have other formats for the paperwork. I have no idea. But the point is that there must be paperwork submitted to the government. Paperwork must also be submitted for registering a car or property, live births, deaths, paying taxes, etc., etc. and we don’t say the clerk receiving this paperwork is an “officiant.” For weddings in most jurisdictions in the US, there must be an “officiant” who conducts the wedding. Apparently Colorado and perhaps other places do not have this requirement. This is not something that happens in Japan, Korea or Taiwan. There is no officiant. There are certain legal requirements for the paperwork to be accepted, but that is the same for taxes, live births, transferring titles, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/48 "2022-01-03T14:27:02Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Pennsylvania lets anybody officiate at a wedding; or, at any rate, did so when several of my family members got married there. As far as I know, they still do. > > Also, as far as I know, the foundations of society have not disintegrated and allowed Pennsylvania to fall into chaos; at least, not more so than the rest of the country. > > (Technically, I think, the couple just marries themselves in front of witnesses. But there’s no rule saying they can’t have an officiant of their choice say whatever’s chosen as part of the process.) We got married in Pennsylvania. My wife, who is from there, says it is part of the Quaker heritage. We got married by someone from the Ethical Culture Society, and I think some of our friends were the witnesses. > [@Tusculan](#): > > Reasons for restricting who may officiate: > > - false claims that someone is married to you, which may be hard to disprove if records are spotty and years old. > - the officiating person allowing persons to get married who are obviously not fit to do so (admittedly the requirement of a license should in theory remove this possibility) > - problems in having your marriage recognised in another country, which may be important for refugee status, social security rights, parental rights, inheritance, insurance of surviving partner. > - the officiating person forgetting to observe the necessary formalities to have the marriage properly registered, again leading to potential problems in getting the marriage recognised. None of these have much to do with who officiates, but with the licensing process. Though we could have married ourselves, the license procedure in Pennsylvania in 1978 include a check of our heath, proof that we were old enough and at least a statement that we weren’t closely related. When I went to the county office to get copies of my daughter’s marriage license the clerk at the next window married a couple who had a single witness. The reception afterwards left something to be desired. Another reason for a standard marriage not yet mentioned is immigration. When my German son-in-law applied for a visa they wanted all kinds of documentation that it was a legitimate marriage with a history of a relationship. A Pastafarian officiant might be legal, but I’d hate to have to explain it to an immigration person. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/49 "2022-01-03T15:41:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We got married in Pennsylvania. My wife, who is from there, says it is part of the Quaker heritage. That’s what I was told also – in fact, some people referred to it as having a “Quaker wedding”; though there’s no need to be a Quaker to have one. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/50 "2022-01-03T16:19:35Z")
There is a Quaker church(?) in Oakland, Pennsylvania. They loan the [beautiful building](https://www.pittsburghquakers.org/facilities) out to various organizations. Years ago I accompanied a woman to a Druid service of some kind there. I ate mushrooms to help me enjoy the weird experience. _ **Narrator** : this was not a good idea._ Some guy was standing at the “altar” talking about seasonal celebratory stuff, when a baby began crying. A woman in a gown carried the baby to him, gave it to him, and he walked off. She remained at the altar, talking. I was certain the baby was going to be sacrificed and began frantically whispering to my “date”. She took me outside and explained to me that the baby was the couple’s kid and they just switched places since the baby was being fussy. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/51 "2022-01-03T16:22:59Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > There is a Quaker church(?) Meeting or meetinghouses in that case. The ones that use “church” are the ones that went evangelical back in one of the various splits. Not a ton of those in PA IME. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897/52 "2022-01-03T18:36:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That’s what I was told also – in fact, some people referred to it as having a “Quaker wedding”; though there’s no need to be a Quaker to have one. One of the rare cases where a religiously based law increases freedom for everyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-harm-in-letting-just-anyone-officiate-at-a-wedding/956897.md?page=2)