# What's the Japanese national narrative about WW2? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 10, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660 "2016-01-10T01:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/21 "2016-01-12T21:34:25Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I learned about Manzanar in Junior High and High School in the late 70s/early 80s. Then again, I grew up in West L.A. Many of my classmate’s parents and grand parents were interred there. I learned about the internment in the 70s/80s too but I probably never learned the name. I grew up in New Jersey. It was not overlooked or sugarcoated. It’s a black mark on our history but it doesn’t come close to Japanese POW camps or Nazi concentration camps. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/22 "2016-01-12T21:40:05Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > None of Center Force’s destroyers were sunk or captured, so there wasn’t any sucking up to captors here. After the war, when the Admirals were wondering if they were to be hanged. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/23 "2016-01-12T21:41:07Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > And the attack succeeded. The Yamato and her fleet were chased off. The Japanese believed they were in contact with a much larger force, and retreated. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/24 "2016-01-13T23:21:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The Japanese believed they were in contact with a much larger force, and retreated. The Japanese had lost three heavy cruisers, had three more heavy cruisers badly damaged and Center Force was in complete disarray when Kurita broke off the attack; it’s not a simple question of believing they were in contact with a larger force than they actually were. They were in very bad shape and Kurita had lost tactical control of the battle very early on when the _Yamato_ was forced to steer north to avoid torpedoes. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/25 "2016-01-13T23:37:58Z")
I see north Samar more of a command decision, caused by fear and bad judgement. What bad shape are you talking about when you have battleships, none of them damaged, and all you see of the enemy are carriers and destroyers? North Samar is one of the most distasteful topics there is concerning naval warfare because it goes against any kind of military logic you can think of. If you’re a carrier force commander up against battleships, you basically have to plan and coordinate like your were God himself. But if you had battleships, you needed to get lucky only once. Well Kurita had luck on his side, and what happened? He should have plunged in. That was the basic plan. The Japanese knew they were outmatched in naval aviation. All they had left were battleships. So the plan was to decoy the main US force away and sneak up on Kinkaid from two sides. If things went well, at least two battleships will be able to wade into Kinkaid’s force and cause general mayhem. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/26 "2016-01-13T23:44:24Z")
I have never been to Japan but I have been to Pearl Harbor and it was surprising how many Japanese visitors were there and, I am told, go there every day in droves. There are a lot of Japanese-Americans that live in Hawaii but the vast majority of the ones at Pearl Harbor appeared to be Japanese tourists. I am not sure what motivates them to go but it is something real to them and they were very respectful especially at the USS Arizona memorial. [Other visitors have noticed and written about the same phenomenon](http://contentedcows.com/2007/08/08/understanding-what-draws-japanese-visitors-to-pearl-harbor/) so I know it wasn’t just a fluke the time I visited there. The documentary that they show at Pearl Harbor before you visit the USS Arizona is very harsh towards the Japanese of the pre-WWII era but plenty of them, even younger Japanese, sat through it very respectfully. Not a single one cheered when the Japanese Zeros swooped in by surprise :). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/27 "2016-01-13T23:55:00Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Well, the captain of a Japanese destroyer that help send USS Johnston to the bottom saluted her as she sank, [according to some of her survivors](http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/destroy/dd557txt.txt): The Japanese, of the time, thought that it was shameful to be captured. A proper warrior goes down fighting, even if it means acting suicidally. If necessary, it is better to explicitly commit suicide than to be captured. As such, they had no respect for American PoWs. But for any soldiers who were killed in battle, they would have respected just fine. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/28 "2016-01-13T23:58:12Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The Japanese had lost three heavy cruisers, had three more heavy cruisers badly damaged and Center Force was in complete disarray when Kurita broke off the attack; it’s not a simple question of believing they were in contact with a larger force than they actually were. They were in very bad shape and Kurita had lost tactical control of the battle very early on when the _Yamato_ was forced to steer north to avoid torpedoes. And he believed that he was in contact with a superior force. The destroyers were reported as cruisers, and the escort carriers as full size carriers. He didn’t know that Halsey had taken the bait and pursued the Japanese carriers. There were “older battleships” still protecting the Leyte landing. Someone reported a salute up thread. Survivors of the _Johnson_ reported Japanese sailors lining the rail and saluting them. From Yamato? (sp) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/29 "2016-01-14T00:02:03Z")
Sorry ti ninja you, Sage Rat. Yamoto is the battleship, and Yammamoto a WWII Admiral? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/30 "2016-01-14T01:16:14Z")
Yamato was a battleship, named after a province in Japan. Isoroku (meaning ‘56’ since he was born when his father was 56) Yamamoto was Japan’s fleet admiral in WW2 until his death. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/31 "2016-01-14T02:14:01Z")
Thanks. I thought it was damn forward of them to name a battleship after a living Admiral. 🙂 He was the guy killed by P-38s in an ambush, was he not? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/32 "2016-01-14T03:59:41Z")
Yes, he was. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/33 "2016-01-14T14:21:09Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I see north Samar more of a command decision, caused by fear and bad judgement. What bad shape are you talking about when you have battleships, none of them damaged, and all you see of the enemy are carriers and destroyers? > > North Samar is one of the most distasteful topics there is concerning naval warfare because it goes against any kind of military logic you can think of. If you’re a carrier force commander up against battleships, you basically have to plan and coordinate like your were God himself. But if you had battleships, you needed to get lucky only once. Well Kurita had luck on his side, and what happened? He should have plunged in. That was the basic plan. The Japanese knew they were outmatched in naval aviation. All they had left were battleships. So the plan was to decoy the main US force away and sneak up on Kinkaid from two sides. If things went well, at least two battleships will be able to wade into Kinkaid’s force and cause general mayhem. We did a thread about what would have happened if Kurita got by Taffy 3 unseen not that long ago. [The tread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=670771) was bumped again last summer by a guy who joined to argue specifically about it, and other than him the consensus was that at best it wouldn’t have made that much difference for the landing and there was a good chance he would have gotten walloped. The US just had far too many assets in place including a special task force of three vintage battleships, four heavy cruisers and twenty destroyers headed to intercept Kurita. The US had 500 airplanes although not all of them would have been able to press the attack. Nevertheless, it would likely have been a bloodbath. > [@the\_diego](#): > > Yamato was a battleship, named after a province in Japan. Isoroku (meaning ‘56’ since he was born when his father was 56) Yamamoto was Japan’s fleet admiral in WW2 until his death. Yamato was the ancient name of Japan and was used extensively both before and during the war in the expression “Japanese spirit” _Yamato-deshii_, which was going to give the edge to the Japanese in the war with America. The ship was given this name in the expectation that it would help lead Japan to victory. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/34 "2016-01-14T14:54:20Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Yamato was the ancient name of Japan and was used extensively both before and during the war in the expression “Japanese spirit” _Yamato-deshii_, which was going to give the edge to the Japanese in the war with America. The ship was given this name in the expectation that it would help lead Japan to victory. Hitler was a little more cautious. The German navy had a cruiser named the _Deutschland_. But Hitler foresaw the possibility that the ship might be sunk and didn’t want to have the omen of the _Deutschland_ being destroyed in battle. So he had the ship renamed the _Lutzow_ in 1940. ---
**Author:** ![Dana\_Scully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@Dana\_Scully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dana_Scully)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/35 "2016-01-14T17:10:54Z")
And I’ll bet textbooks, public discussions, etc., don’t even mention Japan’s biological warfare which Emperor Hirohito knew all about (he had a PhD is biologgy, I believe, and was a working scientist) and approved of. It was almost as bad as what Nazis did. Hirohito should have been hanged as a war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/36 "2016-01-14T17:56:43Z")
> [@Dana\_Scully](#): > > Emperor Hirohito knew all about (he had a PhD is biologgy, I believe, and was a working scientist) I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/37 "2016-01-14T19:03:37Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > How soon will this get moved to IMHO/GD? > > I’m guessing the overview is the same as Germany: > > we were sick, but we got better\* > > - > - and real sorry about the sex slave thing, too There are some significant differences between how Germany treats this and how Japan treats this. Noone has any reason to doubt German contrition for the events surrounding WWII. The Japanese apologies OTOH are frequently retracted by politicians when addressing domestic audiences. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/38 "2016-01-14T21:21:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I did not know that. [Unit 100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_100) and [Unit 731](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731). ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/39 "2016-01-14T21:26:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And he believed that he was in contact with a superior force. The destroyers were reported as cruisers, and the escort carriers as full size carriers. He didn’t know that Halsey had taken the bait and pursued the Japanese carriers. > There were “older battleships” still protecting the Leyte landing. Mistakenly believing the enemy to be stronger than they actually were is a mistake as old as warfare. It really didn’t matter what Kurita thought he was fighting though; it doesn’t change the fact that he had already lost a substantial part of his force, the rest had become badly disorganized for continuing a fleet engagement during the fighting, and he was not personally in contact with most of his force and hadn’t been for most of the battle. Things were only going to get worse for him if he stuck around; again regardless of what he thought he was engaging he knew there were even more US ships in the area. His force had been under constant air attack so reorganizing to continue the battle was going to be a lengthy, painful experience, but continuing the fight in such disorder and without being in contact with his own force was an equally bleak idea. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660/40 "2016-01-15T12:11:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Hitler was a little more cautious. The German navy had a cruiser named the _Deutschland_. But Hitler foresaw the possibility that the ship might be sunk and didn’t want to have the omen of the _Deutschland_ being destroyed in battle. So he had the ship renamed the _Lutzow_ in 1940. Now if only Stalin had the same thoughts about a certain city . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-japanese-national-narrative-about-ww2/742660.md?page=3)