# Whats the logic behind "click it or ticket?" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 29, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995 "2009-05-29T03:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/41 "2009-05-29T06:52:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The reason helmet and seatbelt use is mandatory is to cut down on the expenses of insurance companies. They’re a tightly focused group that has money and directly benefits from these laws. There’s no effective opposition to laws like this because no group directly benefits from helmets and seatbelts being optional. Higher costs for insurance companies = higher premiums for everyone. Conclusion: seatbelt and helmet laws benefit everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/42 "2009-05-29T06:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > ECONOMICS 101: Lowered insurance costs are passed on to the consumer through the mechanism of competition. The insurance market is highly competitive. Just look at a TV ad: they all tout lower rates and invite comparisons. This would only be true if buying insurance was optional. But in many states, you are legally required to buy car insurance. And when that’s the case, it makes more economic sense for the insurance companies to have an unofficial floor on their prices. Say there’s ten insurance companies that are all competing. Let’s say the theoretical break-even point for insurance is a hundred dollars a month. But the companies have all decided that nobody will sell a policy for less than two hundred dollars a month. Every driver has to have insurance so everyone pays the higher price. One company could break ranks and drop their prices and they would increase the number of policy holders they have. But while they would have more customers they would be making less per customer. And the other companies would be forced to follow suit and lower their prices. It would settle out with every comapny having approximately the same amount of customers but at the new lower rates. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/43 "2009-05-29T07:02:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Higher costs for insurance companies = higher premiums for everyone. Conclusion: seatbelt and helmet laws benefit everyone. I said direct consequences. I don’t buy the argument that an individual should give up his freedom for the nebulous benefit of society. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/44 "2009-05-29T07:09:16Z")
I can’t remember the exact details but a few years ago there was the case of the anti-seatbelt campaigner from some US college somewhere who was tragically killed in a car crash. He died young but at least he died free. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/45 "2009-05-29T07:11:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But in many states, you are legally required to buy car insurance. And practically required to buy food, shelter and clothing. If you’re right, I think you just broke the best part of our whole former, now discredited, understanding of market economics. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/46 "2009-05-29T07:12:19Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > My girlfriend’s head impacted the windshield and cracked it. Amazingly, she was a little stunned, but fine otherwise, thank OG, Why do you say “amazingly”? Isn’t that what you’d expect? ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/47 "2009-05-29T07:13:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I said direct consequences. I don’t buy the argument that an individual should give up his freedom for the nebulous benefit of society. Well, if the savings for seatbelt usage were real, which I do not concede, it is not a nebulous benefit for “society”. It is, in fact, lower bills for everyone. I think you will agree that when there is a traffic accident, even if nobody gets hurt, it costs money to fix or replace the cars, money that could be spent on something good that benefits society, like hookers and blow. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/48 "2009-05-29T07:28:20Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Why do you say “amazingly”? Isn’t that what you’d expect? She cracked the windshield with her skull. You’d expect her to be injured rather more badly than being “a little stunned”. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/49 "2009-05-29T07:39:17Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Included in my upthread post. Fatalities have been pretty flat even as seatbelt compliance, in one of the most swiftly changing behaviors ever recorded in human history, has skyrocketed. I asked for a cite that supports your claim that “Seatbelts Save Lives” is untrue propaganda. You have not provided any citations that support this claim. Do you have anything to support your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/51 "2009-05-29T08:17:29Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > She cracked the windshield with her skull. You’d expect her to be injured rather more badly than being “a little stunned”. I would yes. But I was asking **Stan Shmenge**. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/52 "2009-05-29T09:39:37Z")
I put requiring seatbelts to be worn in the same class as demanding drivers stop at red lights. Both ‘affect personal freedom’ and both benefit society (and save lives). I’ve been in two road accidents in 45 years: - well before seat belts were compulsory or even required to be fitted (there weren’t any in this car), I was being driven at night and we calmly approached a traffic light at red. The driver failed to notice a black car already in the lane queue. I gave a warning and he braked hard. We hit at about 5 miles per hour, fully ‘braced’. Both of us had to go to hospital (me for a knee injury, him for a head wound) - proceeding along a motorway in daylight and in perfect driving conditions, both the driver and I were safely buckled up. At 60 miles per hour, the front left tyre completely blew out. The car lurched violently to the left, but the driver kept control, avoided any collision and managed to pull over safely onto the hard shoulder. No problem. The driver said if he hadn’t been wearing a seat-belt, he would have been thrown across the car when the tyre blew. No doubt this would have led to a motorway pileup. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/53 "2009-05-29T13:35:10Z")
They just want to terrorize people with bad poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/54 "2009-05-29T13:35:43Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > As to the real reason, it is the same as the one for red light cameras: revenue enhancement. The funny thing about this is that there are some municipalities that are removing their red light cameras because their ticket revenue went DOWN because people stopped running the red lights. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/55 "2009-05-29T13:40:00Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > And who is to save the government from IT’S stupidity? Well, hopefully the voters ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/56 "2009-05-29T14:03:08Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > I’m OK with the no helmet rule as long as motorcyclists die when they crash if the only other option is to outlast their insurance while on life support. How about allowing an exception to the helmet law for any motorcycle rider signing organ donation forms? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/57 "2009-05-29T14:48:18Z")
> [@TNWPsycho](#): > > I can understand that being unbuckled in a car with other people poses a risk to the others if you were to get into an accident. But to me choosing not to buckle up when you are riding by yourself is simply just an act of stupidity, not really hurting anyone else. > > So why is law enforcement cracking down on this whole seat belt thing regardless if you are riding with others or going solo? There is no cogent argument that can be advanced for justifying mandatory seat belt or helmet laws. They represent an unacceptable, inappropriate, unjustifiable invasion of privacy inconsistent with the principles of personal freedom. I spent a clinical career as an Emergency Physician. I consider not wearing a seatbelt foohardy, and it probably contributes to the overall cost for the rest of society. Also electively more risky and costly are driving a motorcycle when you could be in a small car; driving in a small car when you could be in a large SUV, and driving in a large SUV if you could be in a semi tractor. So also are skydiving instead of sitting on your couch, smoking instead of not, having unprotected intercourse, not getting an annual checkup, and walking in bad neighborhoods flashing your bling. Put over-eating and bad food choices on the list, too, along with reproducing when you do not have the means or the brains to raise children, or your DNA is substandard. All arguments which advance cost to society and/or nanny government as adequate reasons to restrict the freedom of an individual to squander their personal life are specious and inconsistent. Click-It or Ticket campaigns are promoted by well-intentioned but weak-minded individuals who want to do Something Good but haven’t stopped (or are unable) to think through the logical inconsistency of their position. It is easy and popular legislation for nitwits in policy positions, and there does not seem to be any lack of those. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/58 "2009-05-29T15:19:06Z")
Wear a seatbelt to save lives? maybe, But I pass a sign every day that says, “Slow down, save a life.” I have never slowed down, who did I kill? The only reason I wear a seatbelt daily is the damn seatbelt beeper never shuts off if I don’t, it has been much more effective than any law telling me to wear one. My pickup doesn’t have this feature and I rarely buckle up while driving it. I do far far more dangerous things with my life than this and have never been told I am an idiot for any of them, so STFU about it. Riding my bicycle in traffic is far more dangerous. Diving in open waters is dangerous, but I do it about 3 times a year. My insurance doesn’t go up due to my rock climbing. I wear a motorcycle helment. If you don’t, are you willing to fall from your bike at zero miles per hour onto your head? I’m not. and I know this doesn’t count, but; The ONLY bad accident I ever had, my steering column ramed through my seat. I wasn’t in it having been thrown out by the collision. Maybe I rambled a bit, but I hate seatbelts. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/59 "2009-05-29T15:35:47Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > Well, hopefully the voters ☹ And where that fails, the occasional nut with a rifle on a rooftop. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/60 "2009-05-29T15:37:27Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > Wear a seatbelt to save lives? > > maybe, > > But I pass a sign every day that says, “Slow down, save a life.” > I have never slowed down, who did I kill? If you think this is some kind of cogent point or an argument against seatbelt usage, I am very sad for you. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995/61 "2009-05-29T15:46:05Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Note that the overwhelming majority in the reduction of highway fatalities occurred before seatbelts were widely used. Add in the fact that many other so called safety improvements have been implemented during the period since 1980, air bags, comprehensive crash testing, improvements in roads and the vehicles themselves, and if MADD is to believed, getting those darn “drunks” who blow .08 after two beers off the highway, and any improvement due to seatbelts is marginal at best. An amusing thing about airbags that I read once - and I’m not going to hunt for a cite - is that, because you cannot assume that an American driver will be wearing a seatbelt, airbags in the US inflate/explode/whatever with far greater force than in other countries, leading there to be more injuries from airbags in the US than in other countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-logic-behind-click-it-or-ticket/497995.md?page=4)