# What's the minimum-level miracle it would take you to convince you God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 23, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443 "2022-07-23T16:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/1 "2022-07-23T16:32:23Z")
If one day the Atlantic Ocean were split in half such that people could walk across on dry land, I’m sure the vast majority of people would acknowledge something un-scientific and unusual had happened. For smaller-level ones, though, it gets much harder - if, let’s say, one dead person resurrected, there might be people claiming the person hadn’t actually died in the first place and was just mis-categorized as dead while in the morgue (or, if resurrected from cremated ashes, they might argue it was a clerical error and the wrong body had been cremated.) And in addition to something being supernatural, what would convince you that it was of a particular religion’s god, such as Christianity’s? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/2 "2022-07-23T16:36:17Z")
Is god omniscient? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/3 "2022-07-23T16:38:05Z")
Since supernatural events by definition don’t happen, my go-to response to anything highly unusual would be to see what the scientific community has to say about it. If they are stumped I would be more likely to believe that ETs were upon us, than that this is evidence of the existence of any supernatural being (which, by definition, don’t exist). I think this all depends on one’s mindset. If I were a casual agnostic who doesn’t consider things very deeply, I might be convinced by any number of events (real or imagined) to believe in the supernatural. But I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/4 "2022-07-23T16:43:05Z")
A hallucination would be my first guess, barring a non-supernatural explanation (like an elaborate hoax). There’s no miracle I can think of that would definitely make me think “God did it” as opposed to “I’m seeing things”. I’ve posted this before, but this is the rational way to approach such claims IMO: As with any claim of extraordinary events, there are a few possibilities: \*Those making the claim are lying (hoax). \*Those making the claim are not lying, but are mistaken (hallucination, etc.) or were deceived by others (a 3rd party hoax). \*Those making the claim are not lying, but the phenomenon has a natural explanation. \*Those making the claim are not lying and the phenomenon is real and extraordinary in nature. In any randomly selected extraordinary claim, it’s reasonable to assume that 1, 2, or 3 are far, far more likely than 4. This goes even when you yourself are the witness – you know if you’re lying or not, but you may have been deceived by a hoax, you may have hallucinated it, or you may have witnessed a natural occurrence that you mistook for something supernatural or alien. In general, for any given claim, there are many other explanations that seem far, far more likely than “ghosts exist and were here” or “the God of the Christian Bible made a miracle happen”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/5 "2022-07-23T17:24:36Z")
Heal an amputee. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/6 "2022-07-23T17:27:30Z")
If there is a deity, I don’t understand it to be the sort of entity that performs miracles. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/7 "2022-07-23T17:34:43Z")
If I witnessed a miracle, I would assume there is a scientific explanation, if there was not, I would assume That I was mentally ill. If god were real he could just make everyone in the world know he exists. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/8 "2022-07-23T17:47:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Heal an amputee. I don’t find it far-fetched to think that medical science will make this possible some time in the future, so this alone wouldn’t convince me. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/9 "2022-07-23T18:01:12Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > Heal an amputee. > > I don’t find it far-fetched to think that medical science will make this possible some time in the future, so this alone wouldn’t convince me. - I expect this would be an instant healing, not re-growth over a period of time. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/10 "2022-07-23T18:03:01Z")
I’m easy. "A mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels.” Walt Whitman ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/11 "2022-07-23T18:27:35Z")
Everyone in the World believes in **Gravity**. It’s hard to believe in any God (let alone an omniscient one) who can’t match that level of trust. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/12 "2022-07-23T18:34:55Z")
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” - Arthur C Clarke I would assume I was looking at a “sufficiently advanced technology.” Least hypothesis still says it’s aliens rather than God. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/13 "2022-07-23T19:02:34Z")
Logically, the bar is essentially infinite. It never makes sense to conclude something outside of nature has happened vs simpler explanations like a hallucination, aliens or the simulation hypothesis. Emotionally, yeah I’m only human, so if God appeared in the sky, and their followers on earth were making amputees walk again and shit…yeah I guess I’d be a believer soon enough. And I guess in a way these two positions are not so inconsistent. If Vishnu appears in the sky, what practical difference does it make whether it’s God or an advanced ET? Advanced ETs would be like Gods to us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/14 "2022-07-23T19:07:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If one day the Atlantic Ocean were split in half such that people could walk across on dry land, I’m sure the vast majority of people would acknowledge something un-scientific and unusual had happened. I’d be more likely to think, “Oh my God, _The Abyss_ was right,” than the Bible. But probably the most minimum level miracle God could perform that would turn me into a believer, would be to miraculously change my thoughts to make me believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/15 "2022-07-23T19:07:48Z")
For me, the existence of God doesn’t have diddly to do with miracles, at least as conventionally defined. Oh so you can part the Atlantic Ocean? I saw Superman do that in a comic book a long time ago, he did it with his super-breath! If Superman were real and not just a comic book character, that would make him Superman, but not God, you see what I’m saying? Raise the dead, you say? Count Dracula. Or Pet Sematary. OK, so let’s go at it the other direction instead. What would convince me that God exists? God has to meet the following criteria: a) There has to be a route by which we can all live in peace and harmony, voluntary cooperation, no oppression. (Maybe some arguments, an occasional hostile altercation, but no ongoing organized adversarial hostility; maybe some social pressure but no organized coercion). b) The route to get to that may only be available to us if we do something, I’m OK with that, but it can’t be arbitrary, it has to make sense, like “you need to seek the wisdom and understanding necessary to perceive the route” or “you need to strive to be your ideal self” or whatever. But it can’t just be a hypothetical route, it has to be possible. Therefore it can’t be something like “Well if everyone was a perfect angel you could have that, but that won’t ever happen because people are bad and stuff”. c) I have to perceive this in order for this entire hypothetical to move from the hypothetical to the real, since otherwise it could be wishful thinking, my own intense desire to believe the will of God (if I may call it that) can be realized. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/16 "2022-07-23T19:12:40Z")
> [@susan](#): > > If there is a deity, I don’t understand it to be the sort of entity that performs miracles. See, this is why my initial response was in the form of a question. Because right now, I see no boundaries to even define the problem, let alone propose a resolution. I have no concept of a god that I could believe in given what I know of _right now_, so it’s a bit difficult for me to construct some hypothetical deity that I _could_ believe in if certain events _were to_ happen. There’s two layers of hypothetical there, see? The first is a hypothetical about the nature of god. The second is about how I would know this hypothetical god exists. First define the god, then maybe I could come up with some hypothesis that could be testable, whether by some so-called miracle or by mere scientific observation. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/17 "2022-07-23T19:22:31Z")
I, too, am going to dispute the premise. If something hugely unusual and “un-scientific” happened, like the Atlantic Ocean splitting in half or the sun being blotted out (no, wait—that second one is something that [does happen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse) and is totally scientific), my first thought would be: did this really happen, or is it a joke or a hoax or fake news? If I were convinced that it did happen, my next thought would be to ask _how_ and _why_ it happened, and to turn to scientists for answers, though I would be open to the possibility that the best answer they could give might be “We don’t know yet.” Even if I thought it were truly miraculous, why would I think it must be God performing a miracle? And that question applies whether or not I already believed in God. It seems out of character. If God did it, _why_ did God do it? And why _now_, when God hasn’t been doing things like that before? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/18 "2022-07-23T19:29:16Z")
If miracles happen left and right, you should suspect a rascally wizard long before a god… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/19 "2022-07-23T19:45:50Z")
[“Ain’t I a stinker?”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Amuck) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/20 "2022-07-23T19:48:17Z")
If the Lord is Bugs Bunny, my place in heaven is assured. But my odds of being killed by a falling anvil go way up. Hmm. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443.md?page=2)