# What's the minimum-level miracle it would take you to convince you God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 23, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443 "2022-07-23T16:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/81 "2022-07-24T23:32:59Z")
I would turn that poster in to the police, as obviously, they are murdering people in order to win an online contest. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/82 "2022-07-25T06:02:31Z")
I generally start to believe in God after about a case of beer. So, a spontaneously generating case of beer in my fridge at all times, and I’m on board. Now, _Remembering_ him is a whole nuther thing. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/83 "2022-07-25T11:51:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So if we decided it must be ‘God’, the next question is, “Which one?” I’d he frantically trying to figure out if I should throw my kid into a volcano, worship trees, or join a big battle so I can die gloriously and make it into Valhalla. > > If the oceans parted, the most likely God would be Poseiden. What do we have to do to get into his good graces? > > I was going to ask Blaise Pascal, but he’s busy losing his shirt in a poker game. Just posting this in full because I love it so! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/84 "2022-07-25T13:02:30Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/85 "2022-07-25T20:38:28Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The answer is that the mere existence of the universe is sufficient evidence to prove that it was created. That’s a causal fallacy, i.e. jumping to conclusions. One can just as well argue that the universe is sufficient evidence to prove that it is a part of an infinite process, such as the time before 10⁻⁴² second, the Planck Epoch, and the viability of the physical properties of the universe. There is no need for a creator middle man. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/86 "2022-07-25T22:04:02Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > That’s a causal fallacy, i.e. jumping to conclusions. One can just as well argue that the universe is sufficient evidence to prove that it is a part of an infinite process, such as the time before 10⁻⁴² second, the Planck Epoch, and the viability of the physical properties of the universe. There is no need for a creator middle man. There’s no need for a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creator. From what we know of the universe, at least my understanding of it, is that there are no infinities. You are correct that we can’t disprove some kind of infinite process, but the evidence seems to be that infinities don’t exist in our universe, and as such a creative force of some sort that exists outside our universe seems to me to be a lot more likely than hypothesizing any sort of process that relies on an infinity. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/87 "2022-07-26T00:01:09Z")
I don’t really understand the concept of 'miracles" as prescribed by God anyway. God supposedly created everything in the universe. So instead of curing everyone at once, he chooses some random soul every once in a while. Or makes an image appear on a tree or piece of toast? Or leaving conveying his meanings to flawed priests? Why not just appear as a giant floating head in the sky and speak directly to everyone at the same time? Why even have miracles? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/88 "2022-07-26T00:19:07Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > but the evidence seems to be that infinities don’t exist in our universe What is that evidence, and what do you mean by universe? Or “infinites” for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/89 "2022-07-26T00:27:26Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > There’s no need for a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creator. From what we know of the universe, at least my understanding of it, is that there are no infinities. You are correct that we can’t disprove some kind of infinite process, but the evidence seems to be that infinities don’t exist in our universe, and as such a creative force of some sort that exists outside our universe seems to me to be a lot more likely than hypothesizing any sort of process that relies on an infinity. I don’t believe in negatively infinite time anyway - for either gods _or_ universes. It would mean that the thing has experienced an infinite number of days previous to the current day - which would mean that the current day is following the end of an infinite chain of days. It’s impossible to count up to the end of infinity, which means that things that have existed forever without beginning are utterly impossible. Given that fact, it means that all of existence -in this universe or out of it- has to have had a definite beginning prior to which it didn’t exist. Which means that there must have been at least one thing that simply started existing ex-nihilo. And which is more likely to have sprung into existence, a sentient entity with a name and opinions and unbelievable magical powers - or a big bang of undifferentiated matter/energy? I say the latter. But that _something_ came into existence ex nihilo is, in my opinion, a proven certainty. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/90 "2022-07-26T00:31:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But that _something_ came into existence ex nihilo is, in my opinion, a proven certainty. Is it? Just because the Big Bang can be traced to a very narrow slice of time doesn’t mean the constituent elements weren’t already present, there or elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/91 "2022-07-26T00:38:18Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Is it? Just because the Big Bang can be traced to a very narrow slice of time doesn’t mean the constituent elements weren’t already present, there or elsewhere. Where did the constituent elements come from? Had they always existed? Had they previously experienced an infinite number of days? Perhaps they too were caused by something, which was caused by something, which was caused by something, charting a course of events back through time. This course of events took place over a certain number of days. How many days have passed while this was happening, before today? An infinite number of days? Nope. We don’t know when it was, what it was, or how it happened, but _something_ came first, and it had a definitive start. There could have been a whole bunch of things that had separate ex-nihilo starts. I don’t know. But I do know that there was a first moment, before which there was not just nothing, but not even time itself - and this is true of every context real or theoretical. This universe had a beginning. If it’s a simulation on some computer, the universe that computer exists in had a beginning. There could be many turtles in the stack beneath that, but they do _not_ go all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/92 "2022-07-26T01:04:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Where did the constituent elements come from? Had they always existed? Had they previously experienced an infinite number of days? I have no idea. I’m still not sure why you think you do. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/93 "2022-07-26T01:15:59Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Why not just appear as a giant floating head in the sky and speak directly to everyone at the same time? Why even have miracles? SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT!!! \*_gets schwifty_\* ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/94 "2022-07-26T01:38:38Z")
It’s easy to see the logical fallacy in the argument that the universe is just too complicated to not be the product of a creator God; it begs the retort “Well, who created God, then?” But ultimately science runs into the same problem when trying to explain the existence of the universe. We’ve figured out the Big Bang, but we aren’t making much progress in figuring out why it happened or what came before that, and if/when we do, it will just raise the question of what went on before _that._ Either way, it’s turtles for quite a way down, and then it’s “I have no idea”. Personally, if God appeared to me in a ball of flame and gave me some commandments, I’d probably just roll with it. Sure, it might be ETs or some incredibly rare kind of hallucination, but I’d be way too curious to just tell Him to piss off. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/95 "2022-07-26T01:49:42Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I have no idea. I’m still not sure why you think you do. My reasoning is trivial. It’s impossible to count up to infinity. That means it’s impossible to count _back_ from infinity. Anything that exists has been counting it’s days from its beginning. A being that has existed infinitely long has counted infinity days already. That’s impossible. Thus, beings that have existed forever are impossible. The same thing goes for objects, universes, and timelines. Nothing has existed forever - it’s literally impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/96 "2022-07-26T01:51:49Z")
Including gods, right? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/97 "2022-07-26T01:51:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My reasoning is trivial. That right there should give you pause, when we’re talking the makeup of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/98 "2022-07-26T02:11:47Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > What is that evidence, and what do you mean by universe? Or “infinites” for that matter? We know that time and distance can’t be split infinitely. The Planck time isn’t just about how old the universe was at the time of the Big Bang. It means that at roughly 10^-44 seconds, we can’t cut time in half any further. That means there is no such thing as an infinitely short amount of time. Times of 10^-45 seconds, or any quantity shorter than that, don’t exist. Same for distance. The Planck length can’t be cut in half in the real world. Temperature at the cold end is also limited. No matter how cold something gets, it can’t be infinitely cold / reach absolute zero. We don’t know exactly how large the universe is, but we do know that it isn’t infinitely large or infinitely massive, so that rules out infinite lengths on both the small and large end. We know that the speed limit is the speed of light in a vacuum, and that it is roughly 3x10^8 m/s, not infinity. As for what I mean by the universe, I mean everything that resulted from the Big Bang which created the reality that we are a part of. Maybe there were other Big Bangs. Maybe there are other things that didn’t result from a Big Bang. None of those things are part of our universe. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/99 "2022-07-26T02:13:12Z")
I win the jackpot in a lottery. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443/100 "2022-07-26T02:16:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Nothing has existed forever - it’s literally impossible. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Including gods, right? Right, no god has existed forever. It / they might come from a universe in which different fundamental laws of physics apply, but infinity as an idea just doesn’t seem compatible with an actual reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-minimum-level-miracle-it-would-take-you-to-convince-you-god-exists/968443.md?page=6)