# Whats the most (closest to) concrete evidence for the existence or non existence of life after death **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073 "2017-01-13T22:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Timmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Timmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timmy1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/1 "2017-01-13T22:00:25Z")
Its an age old question but I would think science would have some answers by now. There’s some interesting scientific studies being done to try to prove it either way. I dont take near death experiences as evidence as they could be hallucinations. This is one study I found that has the potential to produce the most evidence [Is There A Soul? Beyond Belief - ABC - Dr. Sam Parnia - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1JarYYWDfQ) I read the results of the study, they would basically need to test this out in hundreds of hospitals to produce any sufficient evidence because the chances of someone remembering their near death experience + having a visual and auditory experience of their surrounding (this was criteria they were looking for) is quite low. Out of about 2000 patients only a few have met the criteria and what are the chances of that person giving a damn about some picture on the wall when they’re watching their body being operated on. I’m curious if anyone has seen or read any other scientific studies on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/2 "2017-01-13T22:10:30Z")
Science does have an answer. The problem is, True Believers don’t like it, so they keep engaging in wishful thinking and fraudulent “research” to give them the fantasy-affirming answers they want. Serious scientific resources are devoted to proving or disproving plausible theories, not superstition or nonsensical claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/3 "2017-01-13T22:12:43Z")
I think a better way to look at it is the evidence that the human mind is a product of the human brain. And making changes to the chemistry and structure of the human brain can and does make changes to thought patterns, personality, behavior, and abilities that are anything from very subtle to highly profound. So we have established that even small changes to the brain can cause large changes to the mind–so how logical is it to believe that the complete destruction of the brain will result in the mind continuing to exist, completely intact, as some form of discorporeal “energy creature” (a concept that doesn’t even really make sense?) ---
**Author:** ![Timmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Timmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timmy1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/4 "2017-01-13T22:32:04Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So we have established that even small changes to the brain can cause large changes to the mind–so how logical is it to believe that the complete destruction of the brain will result in the mind continuing to exist, completely intact, as some form of discorporeal “energy creature” (a concept that doesn’t even really make sense?) That makes sense! I’m still open minded to the other option as well as some pro after life theories make logical sense too but then again theres no end to twisting logic which ever way you want to create fluff and magical fairies. Id just like to see more research on this stuff ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/5 "2017-01-13T22:36:14Z")
Science isn’t going to solve this since there’s no way to measure “life after death”. Science is based on experimentally derived, repeatable results. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/6 "2017-01-13T22:38:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Science does have an answer. The problem is, True Believers don’t like it, so they keep engaging in wishful thinking and fraudulent “research” to give them the fantasy-affirming answers they want. Serious scientific resources are devoted to proving or disproving plausible theories, not superstition or nonsensical claptrap. Yeah, all the concrete evidence points to becoming worm food after death … ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/7 "2017-01-13T22:48:04Z")
A couple of links discussing the (lack of) plausibility of an “energy being” (an idea common in SF, _and_ in real life if you conciser things such as souls and ghosts, but doesn’t actually make sense when actually applied to real energy.) > **[It’s a sci-fi trope, but are “beings of pure energy” really possible?](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/03/its-a-sci-fi-trope-but-are-beings-of-pure-energy-really-possible/)** > > Video: We asked a top physicist about the possibility. > **[How would life-forms made of energy work? Assuming that such a being exists,...](https://www.quora.com/How-would-life-forms-made-of-energy-work-Assuming-that-such-a-being-exists-would-it-convert-its-energy-to-matter-in-order-to-carry-out-its-various-tasks-If-so-would-this-matter-be-visible-to-humans-Would-these-beings-be-perceivable-to-humans)** > > Answer (1 of 13): You cannot isolate pure momentum or pure charge - the idea doesn't even make sense. It would be like asking for a poem that was made not out of words, but pure beauty, or a balloon that wasn't made of material, but pure loftiness.... ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/8 "2017-01-13T22:57:52Z")
nothing, seriously there is no evidence ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/9 "2017-01-13T23:03:54Z")
I always enjoy this bit of ‘research’ into near-death experiences. _“People may feel like they are outside of their own bodies, but they are merely remembering memories of the room, and not experiencing it in real-time as a “floating spirit.” For example, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she’s a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there. We would expect differently if patients were actually floating around up there.”_ [https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/](https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/) ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/10 "2017-01-13T23:32:22Z")
> [@Timmy1](#): > > That makes sense! I’m still open minded to the other option as well as some pro after life theories make logical sense too but then again theres no end to twisting logic which ever way you want to create fluff and magical fairies. If you accept that the mind is a product of the brain, I don’t see how you can also accept the possibility of life after death. When the brain dies, the mind ends. Just like when you unplug a computer, the programs that were running on it are no longer running. It makes no more sense to think about where you go after you die, than it makes sense to think about where your word processor is running after you turn off your computer. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/11 "2017-01-14T00:14:37Z")
Various reincarnation registries exist, trying to link people to previous lives. The evidence (if it can even be called that) is painfully tenuous…but one can at least admire the attempt to approach the idea scientifically. (I feel the same way about premonition registries. If I register, “I think there will be an earthquake two days from now,” it’s a LOT more useful than, “Two days before that earthquake we had, I felt it was going to happen.”) ---
**Author:** ![Timmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Timmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timmy1)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/12 "2017-01-14T00:18:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I feel the same way about premonition registries. If I register, “I think there will be an earthquake two days from now,” it’s a LOT more useful than, “Two days before that earthquake we had, I felt it was going to happen.”) Interesting ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/13 "2017-01-14T01:32:01Z")
Since no factual answer is possible, I’ll move this from General Questions to IMHO. Another mod may choose later to move it to Great Debates. **samclem** , moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/14 "2017-01-14T01:42:54Z")
I read about a surgical nurse who placed poker cards (face up) on the tops of operating room shelves/cabinets. When a patient would claim they had a NDE in the OR she would quiz him or her to see if they could report what cards had been seen. Unsurprisingly, none of the patients were able to report “oh, yeah! I saw the black ace!” Harry Houdini not contacting his wife via seances after his death pretty much cinches it for me: [https://www.thegreatharryhoudini.com/occult.html](https://www.thegreatharryhoudini.com/occult.html) ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/15 "2017-01-14T05:37:58Z")
The afterlife is what’s known as “wishing and hoping death wasn’t the end”. Wishing and hoping is not science. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/16 "2017-01-14T05:56:43Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > I read about a surgical nurse who placed poker cards (face up) on the tops of operating room shelves/cabinets. When a patient would claim they had a NDE in the OR she would quiz him or her to see if they could report what cards had been seen. Unsurprisingly, none of the patients were able to report “oh, yeah! I saw the black ace!” . . . I had a friend who claimed to be able to leave her body and go spirit-travelling. (Doctor Strange lives!) So I did the same thing (a passage of poetry, printed in large type, and put on top of a high shelf.) Naturally, she was unable to tell me what the poem said – and, naturally, she blamed me for this, because I was putting up “shields of skepticism” to keep her out. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/17 "2017-01-14T06:05:31Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > I read about a surgical nurse who placed poker cards (face up) on the tops of operating room shelves/cabinets. When a patient would claim they had a NDE in the OR she would quiz him or her to see if they could report what cards had been seen. Unsurprisingly, none of the patients were able to report “oh, yeah! I saw the black ace!” You read about that too? So did I! What are the odds? (cue spooky theremin music) We should compare notes. We might be really on to something! So, I read about it in post 9 of this thread. What about you? ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/18 "2017-01-14T07:18:55Z")
It’s impossible to completely disprove, as far as I can tell. At one point, I thought that brain damage disproved the idea of ‘souls’ or life after death, but it doesn’t; there are a lot of excuses for that. The easiest of which is to say that while your soul isn’t damaged, the ‘hardware’ it’s running on is. Like trying to run a program on a damaged computer, except the program doesn’t crash, it just keeps running with errors. I could posit an alternate dimension/layer of reality/etc beyond our ability to perceive (and the ability of our instruments, no matter how advanced they may become) on which our brains have some sort of effect, creating our ‘souls’ which exist only there, and have no reciprocal influence on this layer of reality. When our brain dies, the effect it created in the other layer becomes unanchored, ascending to ‘heaven’ but still never having any reciprocal or measurable effect on the reality we currently exist in. Completely impossible to disprove, and it fits at least _some_ of the ‘soul’ concepts. It also doesn’t have any problem with damage to the brain affecting our minds, or anything else we can clearly observe. I did just make up that theory like, out of my ass right now, although I wouldn’t be surprised if it was something I heard but don’t remember and am thinking it’s my own (I seem to do that a good bit). But if I can come up with something that seems to fit pretty well and is impossible to disprove in like, five minutes thinking about it, people that spend tons of time on it can undoubtedly do better. So there’s a pretty clear reason not to spend a lot of time researching it: there are people who will never accept ‘no’ as an answer, and they will come up with wild theories that will waste scientists’ time trying to disprove, there’s no way to prove that the answer is ‘no’, so it has to be left as ‘not as far as any evidence we’ve ever seen shows’ and then leave the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/19 "2017-01-14T07:59:29Z")
There can be no evidence for something’s non-existence. All we can say is that there’s not a shred of evidence for its existence. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073/20 "2017-01-14T14:27:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Science does have an answer. The problem is, True Believers don’t like it, so they keep engaging in wishful thinking and fraudulent “research” to give them the fantasy-affirming answers they want. Serious scientific resources are devoted to proving or disproving plausible theories, not superstition or nonsensical claptrap. A point my prof made in second-year physics. Science is about the “scientific method”. Propose a hypothesis, devise an experiment to test an aspect of that hypothesis. Run the experiment, refine or reinforce the hypothesis. Questions like “does God exist?” or “is there an afterlife” or “is this slimy slug the reincarnation of Stalin?” - these are questions to which there is no scientific experiment that could be devised to help answer. There is no physical phenomenon that need explaining. Therefore, the question is not in the realm of science. (The closest we’ve come is experiments where someone says “jump off this building/cliff and God will save you…” Hand up if you see the flaw in this as an experiment.) before someone says “what about evolution?” - we can hypothesize that man and apes have a common ancestor - and find fossils that bear this out, physical evidence. If you dispute evolution, find alternate explanations for these, etc. We can devise experiments using lower forms of life to demonstrate adaptability and mutation. Etc. Etc. This is an example of things that are not just hand-waving. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-closest-to-concrete-evidence-for-the-existence-or-non-existence-of-life-after-death/777073.md?page=2)