# What's the most efficient means of turning sunlight into human food? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922 "2003-07-21T14:41:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/41 "2003-07-23T17:06:02Z")
BTW, you may also want to watch out for kidney beans, since they also have the same class of toxic compound as soybeans: > [@](#): > > Liener, I. E. (2002). A Trail of Research Revisted. J. Agric. Food Chem., 50 (22), 6580 -6582 > > In an attempt to account for the poor nutritional value of raw soybeans and the beneficial effect of heat treatment, a protein displaying hemagglutinating activity and capable of inhibiting the growth of rats was isolated and characterized. This protein subsequently proved to be an example of a class of proteins that were later referred to as “lectins”. Lectins were also isolated from kidney beans and shown to be even more toxic than the soybean lectin. > > [_This is an excellent review article by the man who discovered the compound. Definitely check it out if you can get access through your library._] ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/42 "2003-07-24T00:28:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Edamame are Glycine max, as you say. They are soybeans in the same way that puppies are dogs. To say that the immature, non-toxic seeds are somehow fundamentally different than the mature, (possibly) toxic seeds of the exact same plant strikes me as disingenious in the extreme. Sigh. They are not \*the exact same plant [/quote] . They are a completely different strain of the same species. That is why I pointed out they are only soybeans in the same sense that Chihuahuas are wolves. These are not immature soybeans as you seem to be implying. They are the immature seeds of an artificially bred variant with the same ancestral organism as soybeans. You are trying to argue that we get brussells sprouts off _exactly the same plant_ from which we get cauliflower because they are the same species. We don’t. Cauliflower is an artificially bred variant with the same ancestral organism as cabbage. Edamame is an artificially bred variant with the same ancestral organism as soybeans. > [@](#): > > Yes, there may be a distinction between the vegetable-type cultivars [note plural] and the grain-type cultivars, but they are still the same plant. The only reason that the edamame cultivars are preferred is because they taste better: I suggest you do a little research before you start making these ignorant claims and accusing people of being disingenuous. 1. “because they taste better” is not “the only reason that the edamame cultivars are preferred”. They are prefered because “At harvest, edamame has lower trypsin-inhibitor levels, fewer indigestible oligosaccharides, and more vitamins than field-dried soybeans” ([http://www.stratsoy.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/misc/edamame.html](http://www.stratsoy.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/misc/edamame.html) ) and because “Edamame are more digestible than field soybeans and have lower levels of trypsin-inhibitor, making them easily digestible with only a short cooking time” ([http://agsyst.wsu.edu/edam.htm](http://agsyst.wsu.edu/edam.htm)). In short they won’t kill you as soybeans will. 1. No, they are not “still the same plant” except on bizarro world. They are a specially bred different strain. I don’t know how much clearer I can make that except to say that “Edamame, (Glycine max L.) are specialty varieties of soybeans” ([http://www.edamame.wsu.edu/](http://www.edamame.wsu.edu/)) and that “Edamame is the same species as grain or field soybeans, Glycine max(L.) Merrill, but it has larger seed, sweeter flavor, smoother texture, and better digestibility than grain soybeans (Konovsky et al. 1994).” ([http://food.oregonstate.edu/v/edamame.html](http://food.oregonstate.edu/v/edamame.html)). Same species, different strain, different properties. Understand now? It’s really not a difficult concept. Edamame is not “still the same plant” as soy. It is the same species, the same as cabbage and kale are the same species. It is not the same plant any more than cabbage and kale are the same plant. Sheesh. I am sure that on the bizarre world you inhabit **Terminus Est** cabbages, brocolli, kohlrabi, kale and rutabage are also “still the same plant”. > [@](#): > > Here’s a soybean cultivar that’s used for both edamame and tofu: Yes, and I’ve got a grapefruit tree that I use for marmalade and eating. Since marmalade can also be made from oranges, and since oranges this proves that grapefruit are oranges. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > This article suggests that it may be difficult to differentiate between the two different types of soybean. Based on water-soluble amino acid concentrations. . Gee I wonder if they can distinguish based on something important like genetic material or toxin levels? Why ,yes, yes they can. > [@](#): > > BTW, you may also want to watch out for kidney beans, since they also have the same class of toxic compound as soybeans: I am getting the distinct impression that you know nothing at all about soy or toxicology **terminus est**. The article you cite to ‘support’ this claim mentions that kidney beans contain lectins, one of the many toxins found in soy. Lectins are not a trypsin inhibitor, the primary toxin found in soy, they are simply one of the many other toxins soy contains in addition to that chief nasty. You can say that kidney beans have the same class of toxic compound as soybeans, but only in the same sense that the human body has the same class of toxic compounds as food contaminated with high levels of botulism. We do. The human body contains neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter competitors naturally, just like Botulinum toxin. the human body also contains lectins. Kidney beans also contain lectins, as does soy. Kidney beans also contain trypsin inhibitors, as does soy. So does almost any food you care to mention. And your point? It is misleading and ignorant to present that statement as you have done **terminus est** ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/43 "2003-07-24T01:04:50Z")
The bizarro world I inhabit is the Department of Plant Breeding at Cornell University. I know what a strain is. I know what a cultivar is. I know what a species is. Soybeans is soybeans whether you call them edamame or soybeans. And cabbages, brocolli, kohlrabi, kale and rutabage are indeed the same plant. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/44 "2003-07-24T01:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > And cabbages, brocolli, kohlrabi, kale and rutabage are indeed the same plant. Which I think is all we need to know about **Teminus Est** and his thoughts on this topic. Clearly when he says ‘same plant’ he means ‘same species’ since obviously one can not get broccoli off a cabbage plant. I can only point out that his views that cabbage, cauliflower and broccoli are all the same plant are not representative of the views of Cornell itself, thankfully. Cornell treats them as separate plants. This is a relief to me, but must be somewhat embarassing. “In addition to feeding on commonly cultivated crops such as cabbage (Brassica oleracea L. var. capitata), cauliflower (B. oleracea L. var. botrytis), broccoli (B. oleracea L. var. italica)…” [http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/dbm/review.html](http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/dbm/review.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/45 "2003-07-24T01:51:38Z")
And you **Blake** , continue to protest that edamame and soybean are different, and yet present citations that say edamame is a “specialty soybean” and a “vegetable soybean”. So tell me, when edamame matures, does it somehow mutate into soybean? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/46 "2003-07-24T01:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > And cabbages, brocolli, kohlrabi, kale and rutabage are indeed the same plant. Which I think is all we need to know about **Teminus Est** and his thoughts on this topic. Clearly when he says ‘same plant’ he means ‘same species’ since obviously one can not get broccoli off a cabbage plant. I can only point out that his views that cabbage, cauliflower and broccoli are all the same plant are not representative of the views of Cornell itself, thankfully. Cornell treats them as separate plants. This is a relief to me, but must be somewhat embarassing. Glucosinolate-containing plants Brassica Rape, Kale, Cabbage, Brocolli [http://web.vet.cornell.edu/CVM/HANDOUTS/plants/Carousel%20Two.html](http://web.vet.cornell.edu/CVM/HANDOUTS/plants/Carousel%20Two.html) So Cornell refers to Cabbage and brocolli as differentplants containing glucosinolate, but soy and edamame are the same plant cotaining trypsin inhibitpors. Wierd huh? “In addition to feeding on commonly cultivated crops such as cabbage (Brassica oleracea L. var. capitata), cauliflower (B. oleracea L. var. botrytis), broccoli (B. oleracea L. var. italica)…” [http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/dbm/review.html](http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/dbm/review.html) “Many vegetables in the family Cruciferia are grown in New York, including cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, Brusselss sprouts…” [http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/factsheets/Viruses\_Crucifers.htm](http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/factsheets/Viruses_Crucifers.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/47 "2003-07-24T01:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > you Blake, continue to protest that edamame and soybean are different Indeed I do because they are different. “Edamame, (Glycine max L.) are specialty varieties of soybeans” ([http://www.edamame.wsu.edu/](http://www.edamame.wsu.edu/)) and that “Edamame is the same species as grain or field soybeans, Glycine max(L.) Merrill, but it has larger seed, sweeter flavor, smoother texture, and better digestibility than grain soybeans (Konovsky et al. 1994).” ([http://food.oregonstate.edu/v/edamame.html](http://food.oregonstate.edu/v/edamame.html)).” What do you mean mutte. For someone who claims to work for the Department of Plant Breeding at Cornell University you show an astounding ignorance of plant production. These are separate starins. They don’t mutate into one another at maturrity any more than a cabbage that bolts will mutate into broccoli because it has matured sexualy. What a particularly ignorant thing to say. You really don’t understand what a strain is do you? Do you think that my Gonzalex strain cabbage will mutate into a Bronco just because it reaches sexual maturity? Strains posess genetically controlled charateristics. Those don’t change. Plants can produce localised patches of mutated tissue on the one plant, but that would never alow the type of bizarro situation you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/48 "2003-07-24T02:13:50Z")
Well, gee, I didn’t know that strains couldn’t mutate into one another. Why don’t you come on down to Ithaca and teach all of us ignorant plant breeders everything you know. We so clearly need it. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/49 "2003-07-24T02:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > . Why don’t you come on down to Ithaca and teach all of us ignorant plant breeders everything you know. We so clearly need it. 1. I already have a job that I enjoy, thanks. 2. As the above sites indicate, not all of Cornell’s plant breeders are ignorant. All the rest of them seem to consider cabbages, brocolli, kohlrabi, kale and rutabage to be different plants, based on Cornell’s official publications. All the rest of them also presumably know enough not to ask whether one strain can mutate into another at maturity. All the rest of them presumably would not claim that “The only reason that the edamame cultivars are preferred is because they taste better” when all the literture says otherwise. All the rest presumably don’t need to be informed of these things via an internet message board. Then there is **terminus est**. [singing]One of these things is not like the others…[/singing] ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/50 "2003-07-24T02:33:59Z")
You win **Blake**. I am an ignorant worm. I bow to your superior intellect. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/51 "2003-07-24T02:39:08Z")
I am not interested in winning, nor am I interested in your obsequience. I am only interested in fighting the ignorance which you have promoted in this thread. If you have decided to cease to do so any further then the puprose of these boards has been served. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/52 "2003-07-24T02:47:34Z")
You really haven’t addressed my other question. If edamame and soybean are different, why do they call it a “specialty soybean” or a “vegetable soybean”? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/53 "2003-07-24T02:59:56Z")
> [@](#): > > If edamame and soybean are different, why do they call it a “specialty soybean” or a “vegetable soybean”? For Pete’s sake, you claim to be a plant breeder by profession. Why is hard red spring called a “specialty wheat”? Why is Zinfandel called a specialty grape? Are you suggesting that these starins are in no way different from grapes or wheat generically? How can a plant breeder not understand the concept of specialty strains? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/54 "2003-07-24T03:09:59Z")
So let me get this straight. Hard Red Spring is a specialty wheat, which makes it a wheat. Zinfandel is a specialty grape, which makes it a grape. Edamame is a specialty soybean, which makes it _not a soybean_? Once again, your supreme intelligence staggers this insignificant insect. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/55 "2003-07-24T03:10:27Z")
Oh no **terminus est** , this is going to really ocnfuse you: Also known as Lacinato kale, this specialty variety is characterized by dark green leaves with a pebbly texture. More tender than traditional kale, Dino kale requires less cooking time to reach the desired consistency. [http://www.organicexpress.com/vHome.lasso](http://www.organicexpress.com/vHome.lasso) A specialty kale, separate from traditional kale. But since kale and cabbage are the same plant, all kale must be the same plant too. So here we have a specialty kale, but kale is no different to brocolli, never mind other kale. Oh no, this concept of having specialty strains that are not the same as the traditional plant is so difficult my head is going to explode. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/56 "2003-07-24T03:13:45Z")
And what do they mean “Dino kale requires less cooking time to reach the desired consistency.”? Since kale is the same plant as cabbage it must require the same cooking time. The same plant can’t have different properties. We know from Terminus est that the properties must be the same for all strains. Soy beans can’t have higher toxi levels and require longer cooking than edamame. How confusing. I’ve had enough of this silliness and inorance. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/57 "2003-07-24T03:21:07Z")
Silliness and “inorance” indeed. In my world, bacon, ham, and pork chops come from the same animal. The same wonderful, magical animal. So, too, do edamame and soybeans. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/58 "2003-07-24T03:26:05Z")
**Terminus est** may believe in whatever bizarro concepts he wishes. It is quite clear that he does so in direct contradiction to all the evidence posted so far. It is also worth noting that he also holds demonstarbly erroneous beliefs on several several other related points, including the reasons why edamame strains are utilised and whether cabbages and kale and the same plant. On the latter point his own employer disagrees with him. So much for _fighting_ ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![labboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@labboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labboy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/59 "2003-07-24T03:28:05Z")
CORN I remember from my 4H days, that corn can give you the most calories per acre IF you have enough sun, fertilizer, and water. This is important when you are trying to grow a crop and feed that crop to you animals. The more calories per acre you can grow, the more calories you can stuff into the pig or cow. The bigger your pig or cow the more money you make. OF course, this is considering 1950s type farming. Now days, most farming is done by giant agra-business corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922/60 "2003-07-24T03:36:02Z")
:smack: Let it not be said that I don’t admit my mistakes. I did not mean to imply that edamame and soybean come from the same animal. They come from the same plant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-efficient-means-of-turning-sunlight-into-human-food/189922.md?page=4)