# What's the most undemocratic thing US politicians ever rammed down the public throat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261 "2016-01-05T20:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/21 "2016-01-05T23:55:45Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I’m going to suggest the 14th amendment. That’s a really good suggestion. It gets my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/22 "2016-01-05T23:57:40Z")
Let’s distinguish between “undemocratic” and “unpopular”. If democratically elected politicians vote for a certain unpopular bill, how is that less democratic than voting for a popular bill? If we’re talking about undemocratic, then the establishment of our current constitution certainly should count. A bunch of aristocrats got together to talk about problems with the Articles of Confederation, and we suddenly get this proposal to radically restructure the government. ---
**Author:** ![Annadroid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@Annadroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annadroid)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/23 "2016-01-06T00:06:11Z")
It would seem that something “undemocratic” would mean something “unpopular” with, or " unwanted" by the majority. A majority would be simply more than 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/24 "2016-01-06T00:25:24Z")
Conscription, most notably in the Viet Nam war, but also in the American Civil War. There were draft riots in the 1860s, and huge protests in the 1960s. Picking someone up by force, putting them in a uniform, and making them fight and die for you is never going to be popular, and in those eras it was especially despised. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/25 "2016-01-06T00:28:57Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Vietnam War? Well, I don’t think most Americans were against it (or understood much about it) at the time of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. The percentage who agreed with the war was [65% in 1965, 28% in 1971](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#Public_opinion) (when Gallup stopped asking the question). If the pols persist in an initially popular policy after the public has turned against it, does that satisfy the OP’s conditions? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/26 "2016-01-06T00:39:48Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I’m going to suggest the 14th amendment. Public opinion was somewhat split along north/south lines after the Civil War, but there were intraparty disputes about the change in slaves’ status would affect southern representation in Congress, since it would eliminate the 3/5ths compromise. This was back before daily polls on public opinion, so I’m not sure if we know exactly how popular/unpopular it was. > > Regardless of popularity percentages, though, the Confederate states would not be granted representation in Congress until they ratified the amendment. I have to think that strong-arming a vote through military occupation is at the very top of undemocratic things, no matter how the population feels about it. Bear in mind, however, that any meaningful discussion of “public opinion” in the Reconstruction South must consider the opinions of blacks ([who formed nearly 40% of the population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America#Demographics)) as well as whites. And the blacks were all for every bit of that, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/27 "2016-01-06T00:46:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Let’s distinguish between “undemocratic” and “unpopular”. If democratically elected politicians vote for a certain unpopular bill, how is that less democratic than voting for a popular bill? > > If we’re talking about undemocratic, then the establishment of our current constitution certainly should count. A bunch of aristocrats got together to talk about problems with the Articles of Confederation, and we suddenly get this proposal to radically restructure the government. Yes, but it was only a **proposal.** It had to be ratified by (by the standards of the time) democratic means. National discussions were deep and lengthy, in homes and in taverns and in coffeehouses and in the press, producing _The Federalist_ and some long-forgotten anti-federalist literature, and no one can say those Americans qualified to vote did so with their eyes closed or were ignored by the pols. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/28 "2016-01-06T00:53:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Bear in mind, however, that any meaningful discussion of “public opinion” in the Reconstruction South must consider the opinions of blacks ([who formed nearly 40% of the population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America#Demographics)) as well as whites. And the blacks were all for every bit of that, I’m sure. This is a key point, and may lead to a novel way to see the question. In 1861, [Washington County, Mississippi](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/09/04/abraham_lincoln_the_president_used_this_map_to_see_where_slavery_was_strongest.html), had a population 92% of whom were enslaved. If you can find a law relevant to slavery passed in this county prior to 1865, there’s a fairly decent chance that more than 92% of the population of the county opposed it. Edit: A couple of notes. First, while the OP is discussing federal action, I don’t see that as an explicit requirement. Second, in modern times, I believe there are jurisdictions in which the population is overwhelmingly imprisoned, but the prisoners lack the franchise; a similar situation may have arisen in some such county. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/29 "2016-01-06T01:00:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a key point, and may lead to a novel way to see the question. > > In 1861, [Washington County, Mississippi](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/09/04/abraham_lincoln_the_president_used_this_map_to_see_where_slavery_was_strongest.html), had a population 92% of whom were enslaved. If you can find a law relevant to slavery passed in this county prior to 1865, there’s a fairly decent chance that more than 92% of the population of the county opposed it. If they ever heard of it, ignorant as slaves were so carefully kept. “What’s a ‘law,’ Massa?” Which raises the question of whether the “public opinion” of a sector of the public which has never had the chance to form an opinion on the subject should even be counted. OTOH, there’s no doubt that the slaves had a public opinion on slavery as such, and were generally against it. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/30 "2016-01-06T01:41:28Z")
When wagons were moved on public roads by internal combustion engines instead of horses, it was decided that driving about in such a wagon was a privilege, not a right. Hence the Drivers License and License Plates. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/31 "2016-01-06T01:49:01Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > When wagons were moved on public roads by internal combustion engines instead of horses, it was decided that driving about in such a wagon was a privilege, not a right. Hence the Drivers License and License Plates. What makes you think it was undemocratic? As for slaves being ignorant, I suspect laws created to enforce slavery conditions were communicated quite explicitly to slaves. Even laws that weren’t would probably become known among slaves: some were educated, some worked in the house, and communication among slaves was vital to survival. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/32 "2016-01-06T02:43:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > **What’s the most undemocratic thing US politicians ever rammed down the public throat?** I believe that was the Statesmen-Fellatory Conscription Act of 1893. It’s not much remembered now, as it only applied to Negroes. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/33 "2016-01-06T04:00:53Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I don’t recall the percentage of the overall population that supported Prohibition, but the country was very divided (support was strong in rural, southern and western regions, weak in eastern and urban regions - sort of like gun rights today.) I agree this might be a quite undemocratic law, but Prohibition drew strong support from prominent New England groups - just not necessarily Catholic ones. In fact, the movement largely originated among urban, New England ministers. At the time, of course, it was not uncommon to be a Progressive minister with decidedly secular ambitions. Many southern and westerners certainly did support the movement as well, of course. Nonetheless, the country was deeply divided over it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/34 "2016-01-06T04:24:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I believe that was the Statesmen-Fellatory Conscription Act of 1893. It’s not much remembered now, as it only applied to Negroes. As I understand it, the law was technically color-blind and only considered lip size. (:p:p:p:p:p) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/35 "2016-01-06T14:02:32Z")
The Sedition Act of 1918 (repealed in 1920) was enacted by Congress and had fairly wide public support, but reading it today (see below) is rather chilling: > [@](#): > > It forbade the use of “disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language” about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. Those convicted under the act generally received sentences of imprisonment for five to 20 years. The act also allowed the Postmaster General to refuse to deliver mail that met those same standards for punishable speech or opinion. It applied only to times “when the United States is in war.” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/36 "2016-01-06T14:12:07Z")
> [@Annadroid](#): > > Income tax and Viet Nam and Iraq et al are good examples. [72% supported the Iraq invasion.](http://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-toward-the-war-in-iraq-20032008/) Americans aren’t anti-war, they’re anti-losing. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/37 "2016-01-06T14:44:15Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > In fact the Civil Rights Act of 1964 received > greater % of republican support than democrat support. A good example of how statistics can be misleading. Break the vote down by [party and region:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964) > [@](#): > > The original House version: > Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7–93%) > Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0–100%) > Northern Democrats: 145–9 (94–6%) > Northern Republicans: 138–24 (85–15%) > > The Senate version: > Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5–95%) (only Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor) > Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0–100%) (John Tower of Texas) > Northern Democrats: 45–1 (98–2%) (only Robert Byrd of West Virginia voted against) > Northern Republicans: 27–5 (84–16%) A higher percentage of Southern Democrats than Southern Republicans voted for the measure in both chambers. A higher percentage of Northern Democrats than Northern Republicans voted for the measure. It is only because at the time the South was overwhelmingly Democratic does one get the misleading perception that Democrats were more likely to oppose the act. And what happened to all those old southern white racist Democrats? They became Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/38 "2016-01-06T14:48:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I believe that was the Statesmen-Fellatory Conscription Act of 1893. It’s not much remembered now, as it only applied to Negroes. > [@Lumpy](#): > > As I understand it, the law was technically color-blind and only considered lip size. (:p:p:p:p:p) Not funny and not appropriate to this discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/39 "2016-01-06T15:17:28Z")
The general mood of the American people was isolationist in 1940 but President Roosevelt built up American military forces and gave support to the United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/40 "2016-01-06T15:34:57Z")
As much as I admire Lincoln and consider him the greatest president ever, I have to say the suspension of habeas corpus and suspension of other constitutional rights during the Civil War have to top the chart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261.md?page=3)