# What's the non-American view on the current sexual harassment situation in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614 "2017-12-16T05:51:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/41 "2017-12-18T12:53:44Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > How do you know that it’s common in all restaurants? Show me some evidence. How can you make such a claim? Have you surveyed a lot of restaurants? Have you read some academic studies showing that it’s true? Or are you just going by some vague claim that you’ve heard somewhere? It’s possible to believe that men notice harassment less than women do without claiming that men are so incredibly stupid that they virtually never notice it. It doesn’t take a lot of searching to[find a lot of anecdotal evidence like these.](http://www.revelist.com/feminism/bartenders-waitresses-horror-stories/4892/madeline-wood-24-new-york/27) > [@](#): > > The worst one always occurs right after I introduce myself: ‘Do you spell Maddie with two D’s?’ …‘Yes.’ _Nudges douchey friend_ ‘Those tits definitely fit the part!’ and proceeds to point and stare at my breasts. > > Before I’ve even taken their drink order I’ve been sexually objectified and need to decide how to react. Do I force the smile and giggle for a bigger tip or tell them to fuck off and lose the job altogether? > [@](#): > > "One time I was told I had a promiscuous smile. WTF does that even mean? > > Another time I was walking through cleaning a table and an acquaintance, drunk at this point, grabbed and hugged me. He told me he was trying to get some, and then went straight for my lips. > WTF." ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/42 "2017-12-18T13:52:16Z")
Again, that shows that it’s common in some restaurants. The claim that Ulfreida was making was that it was common in all restaurants. That’s what I don’t believe. Incidentally, I think tipping should be eliminated. It makes it harder for waitresses to do anything about harassment. They should get much more money for their regular wages and tips should be eliminated. O.K., somebody is going to say, “Don’t you know that if tips are eliminated, the management won’t pay more, so all waitresses will be reduced to starvation wages.” If you’re going to say this, you’re indulging in the usual let’s-assume-the-absolute-worst-happens-with-your-proposed-change argument, so you can then claim that I must be proposing to accept that absolute worst case and let waitresses starve. No, of course I’m not proposing to eliminate tips and keep wages the same. I’m saying that this change can only be done in one swoop. Tips should be eliminated and waitresses should have their wages increased to the point where they make more than they now do from wages plus tips. Incidentally, I’m glad to see that someone admits that harassment is probably about as common in Canada as in the U.S. Meanwhile, the battle against harassment for waitresses has to start somewhere. The battle against the harassment of actresses started with them speaking out against Harvey Weinstein. If you want to change things, you have to fight them. All societal changes involving mistreatment of one group start with someone speaking up and showing us the bad treatment they get in their own situation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/43 "2017-12-18T14:00:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m quite fond of Canada and used to travel to Alberta frequently when I lived close to the U.S.-Canadian border. I think, though, that regardless of country, all of us are prone to generalizing based on our limited experiences, especially when we’re arguing against something we don’t want to be true. It turns out Canadian waitresses are also harassed, I’m sorry to report, and it doesn’t seem like a terribly uncommon occurrence. Yeah, I said I’m sure it happens. I don’t believe it’s rampant. Your own citation says it’s difficult to get a handle on. Please be more condescending. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/44 "2017-12-18T15:26:05Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Yeah, I said I’m sure it happens. I don’t believe it’s rampant. Your own citation says it’s difficult to get a handle on. Please be more condescending. I wasn’t feeling condescension; I was feeling frustration, the same frustration I feel whenever someone says he or she doesn’t think something happens often because he or she hasn’t seen it happening. I’ve heard the same kind of remarks here in the States about a host of very real, very prevalent social issues. One of my cites said it was hard to get a handle on sexual harassment numbers because they’re _under-reported_. You want to claim sexual harassment among restaurant workers isn’t “rampant”? Fine. But do it based on evidence, not merely your own observations. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/45 "2017-12-18T15:34:33Z")
The OP asked non-Americans what they expect and what they feel, I replied. You don’t have to like it. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/46 "2017-12-18T15:49:13Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Again, that shows that it’s common in some restaurants. The claim that Ulfreida was making was that it was common in all restaurants. That’s what I don’t believe. Incidentally, I think tipping should be eliminated. It makes it harder for waitresses to do anything about harassment. They should get much more money for their regular wages and tips should be eliminated. O.K., somebody is going to say, “Don’t you know that if tips are eliminated, the management won’t pay more, so all waitresses will be reduced to starvation wages.” If you’re going to say this, you’re indulging in the usual let’s-assume-the-absolute-worst-happens-with-your-proposed-change argument, so you can then claim that I must be proposing to accept that absolute worst case and let waitresses starve. No, of course I’m not proposing to eliminate tips and keep wages the same. I’m saying that this change can only be done in one swoop. Tips should be eliminated and waitresses should have their wages increased to the point where they make more than they now do from wages plus tips. > > Incidentally, I’m glad to see that someone admits that harassment is probably about as common in Canada as in the U.S. > > Meanwhile, the battle against harassment for waitresses has to start somewhere. The battle against the harassment of actresses started with them speaking out against Harvey Weinstein. If you want to change things, you have to fight them. All societal changes involving mistreatment of one group start with someone speaking up and showing us the bad treatment they get in their own situation. I don’t doubt there’s a restaurant here or there where it doesn’t happen, but you specifically, you asked, > [@](#): > > Have you surveyed a lot of restaurants? Well, someone had, and I thought it’d be a good idea to pass that information along. You also claimed that you hadn’t seen sexual harassment happening because you don’t go to the kind of restaurants where it’s likely to happen. I’m curious to know what kind of restaurant you think harassment is unlikely to happen. Upscale restaurants? So-called “family restaurants”? I do agree with you about tipping, which I’ve long felt encouraged boorish customer behavior. I’d rather pay 20% higher menu prices and have that go to waitstaff than have them rely on tipping. However, waitstaff acquaintances disagree–not because they think they’d get starvation wages, but because they don’t trust they’d actually see that money in wages. I’ve also been told when you work your way up to the best shifts, you can make a lot more on a weekend night than you could on even a generous hourly wage. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614/47 "2017-12-18T16:12:16Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > How do you know that it’s common in all restaurants? Show me some evidence. How can you make such a claim? Have you surveyed a lot of restaurants? Have you read some academic studies showing that it’s true? Or are you just going by some vague claim that you’ve heard somewhere? It’s possible to believe that men notice harassment less than women do without claiming that men are so incredibly stupid that they virtually never notice it. > > So what do you propose to do about it? You say that my suggestion that any man who does it should be banned from the restaurant the first time or at least the second time he does it isn’t workable. You say that my suggestion that cases that could be handled by the police wouldn’t work. So what do you propose to do? Are you saying that women just have to accept it? What do you do then? Why don’t women who have suffered harassment as a waitress start a national movement to do something about it? It seems to be working at least somewhat in the Harvey Weinstein case and the other cases that have come up recently. I assume it is common in all restaurants because 1. it is common everywhere women have less power than men (guess where that is). 2. It is common in any kind of work where women’s jobs are essentially, to serve (men). 3. Anecdotally, every woman I know who has waitressed (the closest work I’ve done myself is coffee bar/bakery, where I was behind a tall counter) has experienced it. Can’t think of one who hasn’t. 4. It is _extremely_ under-reported. It is seen as simply part of the job. Imagine what it would take to keep those men who enjoy harassing waitresses to stop. Police in every restaurant? A waitress calling a bouncer over to grab the offender by the jacket and throw them outside? You can bet that will enhance everyone’s dining experience. In my own experience, sexual harassment from strangers in public places is fast and secretive. Walking past you and squeezing your ass and then vanishing in a crowd. Looking down or up your dress and leering at you for a second, then pretending nothing had happened. A benign comment said in a suggestive way (plausible denial). What can be done is an excellent question. It’s also an extremely large one. My opinion is that there are only two possibilities. One, men can sequester ‘their’ women away from other men. Time tested! Two, a truly seismic upheaval in the way men feel allowed to behave around women, coupled with a truly seismic upheaval in the way women feel allowed to behave around men. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-non-american-view-on-the-current-sexual-harassment-situation-in-america/804614.md?page=2)