# What's the origin of "English," the kind you put on a ball? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 27, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256 "2009-10-27T02:42:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scoddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@scoddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoddy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/1 "2009-10-27T02:42:11Z")
Now I’m not American … or English … but I am a native English speaking Australian. In the extremely English sport of cricket, all sorts of terms are used to describe the ball doing something mysterious, usually by the intention of the bowler or the mistake of the batter. For example, when the cricket ball gets old, it can be swung in the opposite direction to the way it swings when it’s new, with no visible change in the bowler’s action. This is called Irish Swing. Also for example, slow bowlers generally impart a spin on the ball to make it go one way or the other after bouncing, thus confusing the batter. One of the stock deliveries of slow bowlers is one that looks as though it is going to break one way and then breaks the other. This is called a Chinaman. And further for example, there is a rather elegant batting stroke called the cut. A misplayed cut, where the ball comes off the bat obliquely in an unintended direction, is called a French cut. All this is by way of suggesting that perhaps the use of “English” could originate in the same type of somewhat perjorative word use, where something opposite is called Irish, something inscrutable and untrustworthy is Chinese, some mistake is called French. Taking it further, an Indian giver, going Dutch; so something English is … weird, unexpected, clever, sophisticated, untrustworthy, tricky, duplicitous? my $0.02 * * * Link to staff report: [What’s the origin of "English," the kind you put on a ball? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1634/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball) ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/2 "2009-10-27T08:26:29Z")
It could, but the [Online Etymological Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=e&p=6) says: > [@](#): > > **English (2)** > “spin imparted to a ball” (as in billiards), 1860, from Fr. anglé “angled,” which is similar to Anglais “English.” ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/3 "2009-10-27T13:52:31Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > It could, but the [Online Etymological Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=e&p=6) says: I’m not sure what their evidence for that is. The OED doesn’t mention such an etymology and the earliest cite there is 1869. The etymology it gives is also speculative, but at least they say so. > [@](#): > > Perhaps so named because English players introduced the technique to the U.S. (but see quot. 1959).] U.S. Sport (orig. Billiards). Spin imparted to a ball by striking it on one side rather than centrally so as to affect its course, esp. after an impact or bounce; = SIDE n.1 > > 1869 ‘M. TWAIN’ Innocents Abroad xii. 116 You would infallibly put the ‘English’ on the wrong side of the ball. > > 1959 Sunday Times 5 Apr. 4/5 The billiard term ‘putting on the english’, which Atticus states is current parlance in American bowling circles. The story goes that an enterprising gentleman from these shores travelled to the United States during the latter part of the last century and impressed the Americans with a demonstration of the effect of ‘side’ on pool or billiard balls. His name was English. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/4 "2009-10-27T15:34:58Z")
Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, **scoddy** , glad to have you here, and thanks for the interesting comments on other terms. When you start a thread, it’s helpful to other readers if you provide a link to the column or staff report in question. Saves lots of search time. In this case, I’ve added it at the bottom of your post. No biggie, you’ll know for next time. And, as I say, welcome – hang around, look at some of the other threads and posts, we hope you’ll find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/5 "2009-10-28T15:53:21Z")
> [@](#): > > “English” comes from “body English,” the contortions a thrower/roller/hitter goes through after the ball has left the hand/club/cue. Sounds a bit circuitous to me. The etymology for Body English seems to refer back to English as in the spin you’d put on a ball. I don’t have an OED, but the time lines seem to fit with Body English stemming from English. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/6 "2009-10-28T16:08:59Z")
> [@scoddy](#): > > something inscrutable and untrustworthy is Chinese It’s up for debate, but the reason it’s a “chinaman” in cricket is 'cos it was first bowled by a West Indian bowler of Chinese ancestry. > **[Left-arm unorthodox spin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-arm_unorthodox_spin#Origin_of_the_term_.22chinaman.22)** > > Deliveries: > Deliveries: > Left-arm unorthodox spin, also known as slow left-arm wrist spin, is a type of spin bowling in the sport of cricket. Left-arm unorthodox spin bowlers use wrist spin to spin the ball and make it deviate from left to right after pitching. The direction of turn is the same as that of a traditional right-handed off spin bowler, although the ball will usually turn more sharply due to the spin being imparted predominantly by the wrist. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/7 "2009-10-29T13:18:10Z")
> [@scoddy](#): > > For example, when the cricket ball gets old, it can be swung in the opposite direction to the way it swings when it’s new, with no visible change in the bowler’s action. This is called Irish Swing. Never heard that expression. We know it as reverse swing. I can’t even recall a guest Australian commentator on TV using the term during a game, but perhaps I haven’t been paying as much attention to Shane Warne _et al_ off the pitch as I did when they were on it. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/8 "2009-10-29T18:50:03Z")
> [@Chez\_Guevara](#): > > Never heard that expression. > > We know it as reverse swing. I can’t even recall a guest Australian commentator on TV using the term during a game, but perhaps I haven’t been paying as much attention to Shane Warne _et al_ off the pitch as I did when they were on it. Damien Fleming calls it “irish swing”, so I guess it’s an aussie thing. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/9 "2009-10-29T18:58:49Z")
**scoddy** said: > [@](#): > > For example, when the cricket ball gets old, it can be swung in the opposite direction to the way it swings when it’s new, with no visible change in the bowler’s action. This is called Irish Swing. I’m curious about this. When you say “swung”, what exactly do you mean? You don’t appear to be talking about the action of the bowler’s arms, you appear to be talking about motion of the ball itself. Que? How does the age of the ball affect it’s swing? ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-english-the-kind-you-put-on-a-ball/515256/10 "2009-10-29T19:45:04Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Damien Fleming calls it “irish swing”, so I guess it’s an aussie thing. I guess I should pay more attention to Australians. > [@Irishman](#): > > I’m curious about this. When you say “swung”, what exactly do you mean? You don’t appear to be talking about the action of the bowler’s arms, you appear to be talking about motion of the ball itself. Que? > > How does the age of the ball affect it’s swing? From a BBC cricket page: [What is Reverse Swing?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/england/4155734.stm), specifically “How does it Work?” > [@](#): > > There have been plenty of theories about why, but here’s the simplest explanation from former England bowling coach Troy Cooley: > > "Reverse swing is all to do with the deterioration of the ball and the seam position in flight. > > "As the ball becomes rougher, it will take on a different characteristic as it deteriorates. > > "So if you present the ball as an outswinger, the ball has deteriorated so much on the rough side that it takes on the characteristics of the shiny side. > > Which means a natural outswinger will become an inswinger and conversely, an inswinger into an outswinger." See previous paragraphs for how and why the ball deteriorates.