# What's the origin of \*riding shotgun\*? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155 "2004-04-09T11:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/41 "2004-04-14T05:12:32Z")
IMHO, for what it’s worth… Some day, I have no doubt, there will be a newpaper found from the 1870-1895 period, which boldly states “…riding shotgun on the stage…” Or something to that effect. But, as far as we can find today, and with all of the digitization of newpapers out there, including even _Overland Monthly_, we just haven’t hit one yet. The strange thing is that we can’t find anything before the 1939 “find” by Dex. That’s a pretty long gap in the “word search” business. But not unheard of. If you, **t-keela** could find it in a Civil War setting, that would be truly a marvelous thing. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/42 "2004-04-14T13:36:47Z")
Actually, **samclem** , I am sort of quietly proud to have found the STAGECOACH cite, because the references that I found all talked about unspecified “movies of the 1940s.” I blush to say that I don’t have any Bret Harte works at home, but I did run through Mark Twain’s _Roughing It_, written in 1871 and describing his stagecoach rides of the early 1860s. He refers to the person sitting next to the driver as the “conductor”, handling the passengers, luggage, etc. in addition to providing defense. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/43 "2004-04-14T15:55:27Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > You are aware that the movie “Stagecoach” is a movie adaptation of a story written by Harte? [IMDB says](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031971/) it was from a story by Ernest Haycox, Stage to Lordsburg. It says Haycox lived 1899-1950, Harte 1836-1902. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/44 "2004-04-15T03:06:06Z")
I am trying to find the Haycox story, to see what he writes. Online searches were not helpful, I’ll hit the library in the next few days. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/45 "2004-04-15T03:34:04Z")
Haycox wrote a story upon which the movie “Union Pacific” (Stanwyck and McCrea) was based. Haycox was extremely prolific in the thirties. All westerns. A newspaper story in 1937 called him the finest writer of Western novels in the US at that time. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/46 "2004-04-15T04:09:49Z")
**RM** You are correct that the movie was based on Haycox. I should have said that Ford adapted some of Harte’s characters into the movie. Although it could be argued that Haycox got his idea from Harte. In any event, Harte was very popular at one time. I have found several references to his writing in works done after his passing. I copied this paragraph…(edit or delete if necessary, Since it’s just a small piece I didn’t think it would be a problem) [http://www.filmsite.org/stagec.html](http://www.filmsite.org/stagec.html) > [@](#): > > The film’s sophisticated screenplay by Dudley Nichols (who won the Best Screenplay Oscar for Ford’s The Informer (1935) and was a frequent collaborator with Ford), about the perilous adventures of a group aboard a stagecoach across Indian country between two frontier settlements during a sudden Apache uprising, was based on Ernest Haycox’s Collier’s Magazine short story “The Stage to Lordsburg,” (appearing in April, 1937). But it also bears a slight resemblance and was inspired by Guy de Maupassant’s Boule de Suif (literally ‘Tub of Lard’), the story of a prostitute (Boule de Suif) traveling in a carriage through Prussian-occupied, war-torn France during the Franco-Prussian War with refugees who are prominent members of the French bourgeoisie. **Director Ford also wove into the story colorful Western characters from Bret Harte’s The Outcasts of Poker Flat.** This is just one cite. There are some that claim he did more than just adapt a few characters. I’ve got some old pre “Stagecoach” movies. I’m going to go through them and see what I find. I recall one that had a young John Wayne in it. The movie was called Blue Steel. It has a character they call “The Polka Dot Bandit”. Now I may be wrong, but I think that was another one of Harte’s characters. I’m not done by any means, so be patient with me guys. I’m doing this from memory and don’t have a whole hell of a lot of free time. I haven’t found a good e-cite yet…been working a lot of hours. I may have to get into the books, (I’ve got quite a few) I know I’ve read it though. I do some amateur genealogy and have read thousands of Civil War documents. I know for a fact that soldiers/guards on the railroads were referred to as shotgun guards and/or shotgun riders. I’ll have to dig on this one but I’m fairly certain I have a letter or a copy of one from a soldier who says to his mother (my 4xgmother) “we’re riding shotgun…”. He was killed and my 4xgfather went to Alabama for the body. So as of yet, I’ve been able to **prove** diddly squat. This thread may die before I find what I’m looking for but I’ll post it when I do. I don’t wanna waste anymore good research time making excuses. So I’ll check w/ y’all later. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/47 "2004-04-15T11:05:18Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > I’ve got some old pre “Stagecoach” movies. I’m going to go through them and see what I find. I recall one that had a young John Wayne in it. The movie was called Blue Steel. It has a character they call “The Polka Dot Bandit”. > Now I may be wrong, but I think that was another one of Harte’s characters. I have that movie! It’s on a DVD ($5.99) with 6 other John Wayne westerns, all about 50-60 minutes long. The Polka Dot Bandit was played by Yakima Canutt, who appears in some of the other movies–in one, as Wayne’s “Indian pal Yak.” I don’t remember a Bret Harte story that even featured a stagecoach, right now. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/48 "2004-04-17T00:12:03Z")
Sheesh! If I ever learn how to use my newspaper search engine, I’ll be a genius. By using the term _ridin’_ instead of _riding_, I found an earlier cite. 27 March, 1921 _Washington Post_ “Magazine of Fiction” (a supplement?) A story entitled “The Fighting Fool” by Dane Coolidge. Chapter I, column 1– > [@](#): > > “Lum Martin!” shouted McMonagle, owner of the Cow Ranch saloon, waving his > finger in front of Benson’s face, “that’s the man–Lum Martin! He’s ridin’ > shotgun for Wells Fargo–or was until last week–and he’s over in my saloon > right now, playin’ solitaire!” So, it looks as if those pesky fiction writers are still in the lead for creating the term. You just have to think like them and use _ridin’_ rather than _riding_. But I still won’t be surprised when the term turns up in the normal course of a newspaper article in the late 1800’s. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/49 "2004-04-17T14:04:03Z")
Is that the Washington Post search engine, samclem? That’s getting pretty early, almost back to stagecoach days. 🙂 It makes the claim by Partridge even more plausible. > [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > I blush to say that I don’t have any Bret Harte works at home, but I did run through Mark Twain’s _Roughing It_. Did you find the thing in Partridge? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/50 "2004-04-17T22:17:24Z")
I used [NewspaperArchive.com](http://NewspaperArchive.com) I subscribe to it for about $80/yr. It allows you to search a limited group of historical newspapers. And the search engine is tricky. I also use other newspaper databases, some of which are available through my local Univ. (but not from home). Hey! This is what I do for entertainment on a Saturday night! **One, please!** I’m still not convinced about the Partridge claim that it was from stagecoach days. While I won’t be surprised when it turns up in a contemporary cite, it just wasn’t used much at that time. I favor the rising level of Western fiction in the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/51 "2004-04-17T22:39:46Z")
Sigh. Woulda saved a lot of time, **Sam** , if’n you’da discovered that two weeks ago. Oh, well. We’ll amend the Staff Report. I think it’s still correct, that the usage for an automobile arises from the movies of the 40s, which arise from the pulp fiction of the 20s and 30s. We’ve just got earlier cites than other sources seem to have found. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/52 "2004-04-18T02:04:34Z")
Tell ya what, Pilgrim! You still made a great discovery about _Stagecoach_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/53 "2004-04-19T02:47:11Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > I think it’s still correct, that the usage for an automobile arises from the movies of the 40s, which arise from the pulp fiction of the 20s and 30s. We’ve just got earlier cites than other sources seem to have found. I am more interested in what Partridge has to say, since I found this early photograph by William Henry Jackson: [The Famous Deadwood Coach](http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/Jackson/image/1143.jpg). Go to the [BYU Online Collections](http://www.lib.byu.edu/online.html) and search the Jackson archives for “deadwood,” and click on the title. Apparently, the photograph original is from 1896. Within the print itself is a typewritten title, which appears to also date from 1896, and it includes this: “John Nelson, ‘Riding Shot Gun’ on top”. The typewriter was invented three decades earlier, but it’s not clear to me when or how the title was affixed. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/54 "2004-04-19T03:45:06Z")
**RM** You may have made a great find. I don’t know exactly HOW we find out if that typewritten info was done at the time. Probably by contacting the Univ/museum. Of course, the may not truly know. You gonna do it or I will. Your call. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/55 "2004-04-19T07:16:18Z")
If their librarians are as good as they say, we may know by sometime late Monday ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/56 "2004-04-19T12:04:53Z")
It’s very exciting to be on the edges of science, here. Stay tuned! ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/57 "2004-04-19T17:04:37Z")
I talked to Tom Wells, a curator at BYU who deals with the Jackson archives, and he said they were fairly certain about the date of the negative, which is 1896, but he could not verify the date of the print, or the title. Jackson lived until 1942. But he did publish some books, so we might find a printed copy of the photo somewhere, with or without the “riding shotgun” phrase. I explained to Tom why I was interested (he mentioned his kids use the phrase all the time), and he said that they once received a request for a photograph of a covered wagon. The customer wasn’t satisfied with any that they offered, until they sent a picture from a movie outtake. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/58 "2004-04-20T01:49:47Z")
**RM** Per your request, Partridge says: 'An extraordinary survival of the stage-coach days. When gold or other valuables were carried, or a hold-up apprehended, a man, armed with a shotgun, rode on top of the coach with the driver. In the speech of the period this man “rode shotgun”. Partridge is Ok as a source, but not too good on actual early cites. Too bad that BYU can’t seem to find out when the typewritten tag dates from. Since that photo had an inventory number? , I’m surprised they couldn’t tell when they acquired it. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/59 "2004-04-21T22:35:44Z")
Hey guys, wassup… looks like y’all are doing okay w/ the research. 😃 So far I’ve found several references but nothing original that I feel secure enough to quote yet. However, I may be onto something pretty interesting. It looks like it may be the source of Harte, Haycox and/or Ford’s story “Stagecoach”. I have yet to get a copy of the original article but have faith, I’m not done looking. While reading through some old magazines and newspapers at my dad’s antique store I found a story from 1863 about a stagecoach and it’s kinda similar. An Overland stage on its way to St. Louis was attacked near Medicine Bow. The driver made it to the station that had already been destroyed by indians. He refused to continue the journey until a young soldier returning to duty, George Plumb, volunteered to “ride shotgun”. (a military term perhaps?) That wasn’t the end of the nighmare for the stage and its passengers but for now I’m focusing on finding the original report. I haven’t got the _Straightdope_ yet, but I’m trying. See y’all later. P.S. I’ve gone through tons of stuff and so far the old dime novels are my best guess at where the phrase may have caught on. So far I’ve found more than a few references to a shotgun rider or something similar. But with over 8,000 different “novels” having been written at least (to my knowledge) This St. Louis newspaper article (if correct) is the earliest mention of the term “ride shotgun” that I’ve found yet. I’ve also found some cool articles on old shotguns too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155/60 "2004-04-21T23:23:54Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > This St. Louis newspaper article (if correct) is the earliest mention of the term “ride shotgun” that I’ve found yet. > I’ve also found some cool articles on old shotguns too. 😉 When was the article that you are reading written? What kind of a paper/book? I can also find a cite or two saying something to the effect…[a yellowed clipping from a newsper from the old West …‘riding shotgun’ …etc.] But going to the original source will be tough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-riding-shotgun/239155.md?page=4)