# "What's the origin of the piggy bank?" revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571 "2013-01-18T01:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elysdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b77776/32.png) [@elysdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elysdir)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/1 "2013-01-18T01:11:52Z")
I recently came across the staff report titled “[What’s the origin of the piggy bank?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1542/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank)”. (Not sure when it was published, but I gather it was sometime before 2005.) I’d like to respectfully suggest that the source that Science Advisory Board member Mac relied on for the information about the clay called “pygg” may have been inaccurate. I wrote up the details in a [blog entry](http://www.kith.org/journals/neology/2013/01/piggy_bank.html), but the gist of it is that I can’t find any reliable source that supports the idea that there was a clay called pygg, nor that the idea of pig-shaped banks comes from containers made from pygg. The source that Mac drew on does say that, but doesn’t appear to give a source for that claim, and other reputable sources (such as the etymology department at Merriam-Webster) suggest that the pygg story is groundless. I would be delighted to learn more about this, though. Do any of you have more information? As far as I can tell, most of the online discussions of the pygg story rely directly or indirectly on this Straight Dope piece, so it can be hard to find supporting evidence from other reliable sources. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/2 "2013-01-18T06:40:07Z")
Good call. The column states, on the sole authority, it would seem, of the Charles Panati book, that pygg jars had become pig banks by the 18th century yet no cites are given for this extraordinary claim. The earliest relevant cite in the OED (for _pig savings bank_) is 1913 and for _piggy bank_ itself 1939. No mention is made of pygg clay and there is no trace in the OED of _pygg jar_. That column certainly needs either substantiation or revision. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/3 "2013-01-18T12:13:49Z")
Having checked I see that I brought this topic up on the [WordOrigins forum](http://wordoriginsorg.yuku.com/topic/766/Piggy-bank) (the old site) in 2002. The Straight Dope column was referenced in that thread and **samclem** himself voiced similar misgivings there, noting the complete lack of 17th/18th century cites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/4 "2013-01-19T04:19:47Z")
However, see OED _s.v._ pig _n. 2_ ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/5 "2013-01-20T01:39:18Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > However, see OED _s.v._ pig _n. 2_ That is less than helpful. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/6 "2013-01-20T15:37:26Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > However, see OED _s.v._ pig _n. 2_ > [@OED](#): > > Now chiefly Sc. and Eng. regional (north.). > A. n.2 > 1. > > a. A pot, pitcher, jar, or other vessel, usually made of earthenware; a crock; (in pl.) crockery or earthenware generally. > > c1450 Alphabet of Tales (1905) II. 340 Euerilk day..was broght vnto hym a lofe of bread and a pygg with wyne. > 1488 in T. Dickson Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1877) I. 79 Deliuerit be Dene Robert Hog, channoune of Halirudhous, to the Thesaurare, tauld in presens of the Chancellare, Lord Lile..in a pyne pig of tyn. > a1522 G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneid vii. xiv. 25 Furth of ane payntit pyg, quhair as he stude, A gret river defundand or a flude. > 1588 in W. Greenwell Wills & Inventories Registry Durham (1860) II. 312, j litle wood coup, j paer of muster quernes of wood, j litle wood pigge, iiij wood dishes, j earthen panne. > 1631 Edinb. Test. LV. f. 63v, in Dict. Older Sc. Tongue (at cited word), Of reddie money in ane littell pynt pig xxij lib. > a1646 D. Wedderburn Vocabula (1685) 13 Urna, a pitcher or pig. > 1724 in A. Ramsay Tea-table Misc. (1733) II. 181 A pig, a pot, and a kirn there ben. > a1774 R. Fergusson Poems Var. Subj. (1779) 14 A’ his china pigs are toom. > 1818 Scott Heart of Mid-Lothian xii, in Tales of my Landlord 2nd Ser. IV. 256 It wad be better laid out on yon bonny grass holms, than lying useless here in this auld pigg. > 1899 J. Spence Shetland Folk-lore 239 I’ll creep me up an’ kirn da tip o’ milk, sae dat du gets a aer o’ druttle i’ da pig. > 1947 J. B. Salmond Toby Jug ii, In certain hollows there still lay bits of broken ‘pigs’—pieces of earthenware glazed to brilliant blues, or in a pattern of pink roses. > 1980 D. K. Cameron Willie Gavin xii. 122 Often they were preserved for the winter..in a big pig or earthenware jar. Also > [@OED](#): > > piggy bank, n. > > Etymology: Apparently \< piggy n.1 + bank n.3, on account of its shape, although a connection with pig n.2 also seems probable: compare pirlie pig at pirlie n. for earlier use of pig n.2 in the name of a pot used as a money box. Compare piggy n.2 > In the mid 20th cent. in Scots piggy also occurs (as adjective) in the sense ‘made of earthenware’ and (as noun) in the senses ‘earthenware or clay marble’ and ‘earthenware’: see Sc. National Dict. s.v. piggie n.2, v.1 > > A money box, esp. one shaped like a pig; (fig.) savings, any supply of money. > Formerly, piggy banks were often made of earthenware with a slot for inserting coins, and had to be smashed in order to retrieve the savings inside. > > [1913 Kresge’s Katalog 5 ¢ & 10 ¢ Merchandise (S. S. Kresge & Co.) 93/3 Pig Savings Bank 10c.] > 1939 Long Beach (Calif.) Independent 16 Feb. 6 (advt.) Put the pennies saved into a piggy bank. > 1955 A. Huxley Genius & Goddess 51 Ruth broke her piggy bank and squandered a year’s accumulated savings on a make-up kit and a bottle of cheap perfume. > 1992 Economist 6 June 65/1 Plenty of interest-groups would like to see Mr Cavallo crack open the government’s piggy-bank and increase the money for pensions, health and education. To show the Scots _pirlie pig_ mentioned above: > [@OED](#): > > pirlie, n. > > Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈpəːli/ , U.S. /ˈpərli/ , Sc. /ˈpɪrli/ , /ˈpʌrli/ > Forms: 17– pirly, 18 purley, 18 purlie, 18 purly, 18– pirley, 18– pirlie, 19– perlie, 19– perly, 19– pirrlie. (Show Less) > Etymology: Probably \< Older Scots pyrl to thrust or poke at (see pirl v.) + -y suffix6. In the compound pirlie pig the second element is pig n.2 and adj.; in Older Scots pirrel pig occurs in the same sense (see below; apparently \< pirl v. + pig n.2; see further Dict. Older Sc. Tongue at that entry); the compound thus probably originally alluded to poking or prodding coins out of a pot. > 1679 in P. Baxter Shoemaker Incorporation of Perth (1927) 9 [The opening of] the pirrell pig [and £6 5s. 6d. found therein]. > > Sc. > > In full pirlie pig. A piggy bank. > > 1799 ‘Philetas’ in J. Thomson Hist. Dundee (1874) i. x. 127 Old women and children kept their pozes in their kist neuks and pirly pigs. > 1831 in Trans. Banffshire Field Club (1939) 33 One Stone purly 4/-. > 1889 J. M. Barrie Window in Thrums xviii. 170, I mind he broke open his pirly,..an’ bocht a ha’penny worth o’ something to ye every day. > 1900 Longman’s Mag. Nov. 49 Donald did not possess a bike yet, and my ‘tips’ went into a perly pig in which he was saving up to buy one. > 1934 H. B. Cruickshank Noran Water 15 Ye’ve riped the pirlie mony’s the time Withooten ony skaith. > 1999 Evening News (Edinburgh) (Nexis) 20 Oct. 12 He said the ‘pirlie pig’, as the ceramic money pots were known in Scotland, was not actually shaped like the animal. But not much above definitely shows clay banks shaped like pigs much earlier than _ca._ 1900. ---
**Author:** ![elysdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b77776/32.png) [@elysdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elysdir)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/7 "2013-01-21T07:00:56Z")
Thanks, all! A few further thoughts: - A friend also pointed out the OED’s meaning 2 of “pig,” which I hadn’t noticed; that’s definitely an interesting and useful connection. But yeah, it doesn’t provide any evidence that there was ever a kind of clay called _pygg_. And since the first cite for the spelling “pig” for an earthenware container goes back to 1488, not long after the first cite for “pygg”, I think that Straight Dope column’s bit about the Great Vowel Shift is probably not so relevant. - My CD-ROM copy of the OED doesn’t have the entry for “piggy bank”, so I hadn’t known about _pirlie pig_. Fascinating the OED now says “although a connection with pig n.2 also seems probable”; I’ll have to run that by the MW etymology editor, who said he didn’t know of any evidence connecting the two. - > [@samclem](#): > > But not much above definitely shows clay banks shaped like pigs much earlier than _ca._ 1900. Yeah. And my OED has an additional quote for _pirlie pig_ that provides further evidence that it isn’t shaped like a pig, even in the 20th century: 1905 Athenæum 28 Jan. 118 The pirley-pig or circular money-box pertaining to the Town Council of Dundee. This pewter money-box is in the shape of an orange or flattened globe. - At the suggestion of another friend, I’ve now used Advanced Google Book Search to find the pygg story in a book called _How Did It Begin?_ by R. Brasch, published in 1965. Amazon reviewers of a more recent edition of that book complain that the author appears to have just made stuff up rather than actually doing any research. And I can’t find any other occurrences of the pygg story before that, searching back to 1800. So I kinda think that Brasch may’ve found out about the earthenware container called a pygg or pig, and assumed that it came from the name for a kind of clay, and assumed that it must be the origin of the term “piggy bank.” - For a few more details about a couple of the above items, see my followup comments on my [blog entry](http://www.kith.org/journals/neology/2013/01/piggy_bank.html). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/8 "2013-01-22T04:52:58Z")
**elysdir**. I sent you a PM yesterday afternoon showing you that the story was out there, in a newspaper ad{1964), a year before Brasch published his book(in 1966, NOT 1965). ---
**Author:** ![elysdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b77776/32.png) [@elysdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elysdir)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/9 "2013-01-22T22:27:31Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I sent you a PM yesterday afternoon showing you that the story was out there, in a newspaper ad{1964), a year before Brasch published his book(in 1966, NOT 1965). Thanks much for the info! I apologize for not having seen your PM until now; I’m new to this forum, and I almost never receive PMs on web forums so it didn’t occur to me to look for one. Thank you for sending it! I can’t tell from your post here whether you’re upset with me; in case you are, just to be clear, I wasn’t intentionally ignoring or contradicting you, I just hadn’t seen your note. Re the 1965 date: Google Books shows a copy of Brasch’s book (from Australia) that appears to have a copyright date of 1965. Here’s the search: ([How Did It Begin? - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?ei=jg__UIShF8iIiAKs8IHoBg&id=DIT6KCznsBoC&dq=%22How+Did+It+Begin%3F%22+brasch&q=1965#search_anchor)) The third snippet there is a little fuzzy, but I think it says “Copyright (c) 1965 by Longmans, Green and Co., Ltd., Australia”. (But instead of “(c)” it has the c-in-circle copyright symbol.) There are other copies with 1966 dates, so maybe it was reprinted the following year? It’s possible that the copyright page in the 1965 copy shows the wrong date, or that it’s not the copyright line for this book (the snippet view makes it a little difficult to determine context), but it gives me the impression that that copy of the book was published in 1965. Fascinating re the 1964 newspaper ad; thanks for telling me about that. Do you have a link I could link to from my blog? The reason I guessed that Brasch had started the pygg story is that I did a series of Google Books searches going back from 1965 to 1800, and didn’t find any other occurrences of the word “pygg” referring to clay. So I’m really intrigued by the 1964 ad; I wonder whether there are other books that contained the story that just didn’t come up in the search (and/or that Google Books hasn’t indexed), or whether the story was circulating in other forms but hadn’t appeared in a book before Brasch. (Edited a minute after posting to clarify the copyright symbol.) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/10 "2013-01-23T01:18:17Z")
> [@elysdir](#): > > I can’t tell from your post here whether you’re upset with me; in case you are, just to be clear, I wasn’t intentionally ignoring or contradicting you, I just hadn’t seen your note. No problem. Not upset. > [@](#): > > Re the 1965 date: Google Books shows a copy of Brasch’s book (from Australia) that appears to have a copyright date of 1965. Here’s the search: ([How Did It Begin? - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?ei=jg__UIShF8iIiAKs8IHoBg&id=DIT6KCznsBoC&dq=%22How+Did+It+Begin%3F%22+brasch&q=1965#search_anchor)) > > The third snippet there is a little fuzzy, but I think it says “Copyright (c) 1965 by Longmans, Green and Co., Ltd., Australia”. (But instead of “(c)” it has the c-in-circle copyright symbol.) There are other copies with 1966 dates, so maybe it was reprinted the following year? It’s possible that the copyright page in the 1965 copy shows the wrong date, or that it’s not the copyright line for this book (the snippet view makes it a little difficult to determine context), but it gives me the impression that that copy of the book was published in 1965. I think you’re probably correct . He’s Aussie and it probably was published there first in 1965. > [@](#): > > Fascinating re the 1964 newspaper ad; thanks for telling me about that. Do you have a link I could link to from my blog? . Link not available unless subscribed to a paid newpaper database. > [@](#): > > The reason I guessed that Brasch had started the pygg story is that I did a series of Google Books searches going back from 1965 to 1800, and didn’t find any other occurrences of the word “pygg” referring to clay. So I’m really intrigued by the 1964 ad; I wonder whether there are other books that contained the story that just didn’t come up in the search (and/or that Google Books hasn’t indexed), or whether the story was circulating in other forms but hadn’t appeared in a book before Brasch. I’m a pretty savvy/experienced searcher. No other Google books. But, I’m also intrigued as to where the bank got the info for the ad. I’ll update you if I find anything. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-the-piggy-bank-revisited/647571/11 "2013-01-23T05:20:00Z")
I thought\* pygg \*was an old way of spelling _pig_, as seen in this old recipe for [PYGGES IN SAWSE SAWGE](http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8102/pg8102.html) from the [Forme of Cury](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forme_of_Cury), originating in the 14th century. > [@](#): > > Take Pigges yskaldid and quarter hem and seeþ hem in water and salt, take hem and lat hem kele [2]. take persel sawge. and grynde it with brede and zolkes of ayrenn harde ysode. temper it up with vyneger sum what thyk. and, lay the Pygges in a vessell. and the sewe onoward and serue it forth. More than one spelling there, but it’s seems strange to assume the term was derived from anything but a vessel shaped like a pig.