# What's the origin of this KJV Bible riddle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969 "2004-04-08T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/1 "2004-04-08T15:34:30Z")
I asked this a couple of years ago, and got nothing resembling an answer to the OP–only some discussion on the riddle itself: [http://possumsal.homestead.com/godmadeadam.html](http://possumsal.homestead.com/godmadeadam.html) What is the earliest cite for this riddle? Is there any evidence of this riddle dating back before the Internet, let alone a cite from 1890? Those are the GQs. It’s not a question about the rather inexact translation of the Hebrew words as they ended up in the KJV. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/2 "2004-04-08T18:15:09Z")
We know the date and the dollar amount offered for the wager and we have the entire text of the riddle, (and we have, on some web sites, the information that an 8-year-old guessed the answer–presumably first), but we do not have the name of the man who offered the wager or the woman who won it? I have not found the real origin, but I’m voting that it is a recent invention. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/3 "2004-04-08T18:18:17Z")
We know the date and the dollar amount offered for the wager, _the location (state) of the woman who won and the location (city) of the man who initiated the wager,_ and we have the entire text of the riddle, (and we have, on some web sites, the information that an 8-year-old guessed the answer–presumably first), but we do not have the name of the man who offered the wager or the woman who won it? ---
**Author:** ![Fox\_Paws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85e7bf/32.png) [@Fox\_Paws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fox_Paws)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/4 "2004-04-08T19:06:51Z")
Howzabout one of these: abase abiah adder ahiah alpha alter amiss annas apply arpad ashan attai azgad (From here: [http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/allwords/](http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/allwords/)) I did the A’s (by hand, since I can’t program) – somebody else can do the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Fox\_Paws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85e7bf/32.png) [@Fox\_Paws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fox_Paws)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/5 "2004-04-08T19:32:19Z")
Could [Sam Loyd](http://www.google.com/search?q=sam+loyd&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) be the man who initiated the wager? ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/6 "2004-04-08T19:34:24Z")
> [@buddafuco](#): > > Howzabout one of these: > > abase… No, it’s a… whale! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/7 "2004-04-08T19:41:42Z")
This form of puzzle riddle was certainly a common form of recreation in the 19th century, almost as popular as crossword puzzles are today. Lewis Carroll [wrote many](http://varatek.com/scott/carrol_riddles.html), and puzzle books from the period are full of them. Although some puzzlers continued to produce them, they are so characteristic of the 19th century that I’d say the date is a point in favor of this one’s authenticity. Of course, a good faker would know that. 🙂 On preview I see **Ross’s** answer, which looks like a good one, except that [Strong’s Concordance](http://www.godrules.net/cgi-bin/htsearch.cgi?words=whale&method=and&format=builtin-long&matchesperpage=10&sort=score&config=htdig&restrict=%2Fkjvstrongs%2F&exclude=) only finds the word twice. Not sure if that’s meaningful or not, since there’s lots of room for error. ---
**Author:** ![Fox\_Paws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85e7bf/32.png) [@Fox\_Paws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fox_Paws)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/8 "2004-04-08T19:44:48Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > No, it’s a… > > whale! I count two occurrences of (word), and one each of (word)s and (word)'s. I suppose if you count those all as the same, then the answer is legit. ---
**Author:** ![GasDr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@GasDr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GasDr)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/9 "2004-04-08T19:45:37Z")
Satan?? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/10 "2004-04-08T20:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > And up in heaven I can never go > Nor in the grave or in hell below If Satan can’t go the hell, then you’ve invented a whole new theology. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/11 "2004-04-08T20:12:59Z")
Ross’ answer makes a lot of sense for most of the riddle: pole to pole, thousands fearing, bringing light, not going to heaven. But how does it fit with the bit about God giving a soul and then taking it back? I mean, who cares who wrote it, I want an answer, darnit! ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/12 "2004-04-08T20:18:54Z")
Dudes (and dudettes), the answer’s in the link. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/13 "2004-04-08T20:21:15Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > But how does it fit with the bit about God giving a soul and then taking it back? Jonah ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/14 "2004-04-08T21:18:01Z")
OK, that’s officially weird. I saw the bit about putting the cursor over the “wide old owl” and scrolled down twice. Each time I thought I hit the end but my view stopped just before the owl. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/15 "2004-04-08T21:51:20Z")
I got the owl to dip its head a bit and a reflection appeared in its eyes but that wasn’t much use. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/16 "2004-04-08T22:18:16Z")
Let the cursor rest on the owl for a few seconds and see what pops up. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/17 "2004-04-08T22:24:08Z")
Aha, I’ve established what the problem is. The page isn’t Opera-friendly. Works fine in IE. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/18 "2004-04-08T22:48:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We know the date and the dollar amount offered for the wager and we have the entire text of the riddle, (and we have, on some web sites, the information that an 8-year-old guessed the answer–presumably first), but we do not have the name of the man who offered the wager or the woman who won it? > > I have not found the real origin, but I’m voting that it is a recent invention. The fact that the part about the wager could have been made up doesn’t mean that the riddle itself is recent. The part about “providing light” would make me think it could indeed be old. Who would get this reference, now? On the other hand, it says “I _once_ furnished light”. So presumably, the…the answer… didn’t furnished light any more when the riddle was written, but possibly did quite recently before. When did the “thing” stopped being used for this purpose? Does someone know? ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/19 "2004-04-08T22:49:12Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Let the cursor rest on the owl for a few seconds and see what pops up. Didn’t work in my browser (Firefox under XP). Had to go browsing the source. Yet another web site that assumes everyone is in lock-step with the Microsoft Hegemony. 😉 JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969/20 "2004-04-08T22:58:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The part about “providing light” would make me think it could indeed be old. Who would get this reference, now? On the other hand, it says “I _once_ furnished light”. So presumably, the…the answer… didn’t furnished light any more when the riddle was written, but possibly did quite recently before. When did the “thing” stopped being used for this purpose? Does someone know? It was largely replaced by kerosene around the 1850’s. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-origin-of-this-kjv-bible-riddle/238969.md?page=2)