# What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865 "2021-03-27T18:44:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/201 "2021-05-11T02:02:41Z")
Assume sincerity. (Of course some use religions and their institutions for power and to preserve a social class order and for personal gain, but we are ignoring them). For many thousands of years large fractions of humanity have sincerely held beliefs, as revealed truth, that you sincerely believe are false beliefs. Many more than that have believed that which you hold as truth. That would only happen if holding such beliefs serves some function, for individuals and for their societies or groups, has some “point”. It does not just happen for no reason. What are those reasons, the functions that belief holding serves? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/202 "2021-05-11T05:17:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That would only happen if holding such beliefs serves some function, for individuals and for their societies or groups, has some “point”. It does not just happen for no reason. > > What are those reasons, the functions that belief holding serves? Something about the way you phrased that led me to consider the distinction between _having_ a religion and _following_ a religion. I concede that holding a certain set of beliefs, in and of itself, does _not_ have much function. However, those beliefs will inform a person about the way he should be running his life. And _that_ can serve a whole bunch of functions: - One will feel entitled to whatever rewards are promised by that system (and escape from whatever punishments are promised) - One might see positive moral values in that belief system (and even if there are inscrutable parts that seem contrary, they might be accepted as part of a package deal) - One might simply get the pride of doing one’s duty according to that system. After writing the above, it occurred to me that it might also apply to belief systems that we don’t usually think of as religions. For example, political parties. One might just as well ask “What’s the point of political parties?” Well, it seems to me that even though most political parties do not claim to be The Revealed Truth Of God, they do unite people who have common opinions about how government should work. They can hold those views altruistically, for the good of their country, and do so quite sincerely, even willing to go to war over those principles. All this despite the fact that the members of the other party are convinced that the opposition are evil traitors. I hope that this last paragraph doesn’t derail the conversation. But how much difference is there between “What’s the point of a religion?” and “What’s the point of a deeply-held set of beliefs?” ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/203 "2021-05-11T22:09:26Z")
But “What’s the point of gravity or the sun?”, while a silly question, doesn’t require that one believe in gravity or the sun as a matter of faith. There is plenty of evidence that they exist. God? Not so much. That’s what it really comes down to. Do you believe in a god? Its my opinion, that at some point when humans began questioning things that they couldn’t explain, they came up with a god as a tidy answer. Things evolved from there. Shamans or priests or whatever began claiming that they knew what the god(s) wanted and began issuing edicts . Things warped/mutated over time until we have the current state of things. Its been said before that the various religions can’t all be right but they can all be wrong. Which is, obviously, what I believe. No eternal supreme being living in the sky that needs to be kowtowed to under penalty of eternal damnation. The death and destruction inflicted in the names of the various gods is huge waste of blood and treasure. That alone argues against the existence of some benevolent overseer. Of course, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/204 "2021-05-12T00:47:30Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > But how much difference is there between “What’s the point of a religion?” and “What’s the point of a deeply-held set of beliefs?” Religion is a very specific sort of deeply held beliefs that has functions other than many other ones, simultaneously providing the basic moral postulates of revealed truth that gird the rules, acting as folk science and a comfort when we are scared by our ignorance, and a tribal identity that provides a sense of extended family (mishpacha) on the positive and a distinction against the others on the negative. Few other belief systems do those things let alone all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/205 "2021-05-12T06:43:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ve heard many people claim that their spouses and/or friends communicate with them. Yet their spouses and friends rarely tell them anything they couldn’t have figured out for themselves. So what’s the point of love, friendship, companionship? > > Just suggesting by analogy that maybe the main point of religion doesn’t reside in _information_ . Maybe the point is the very Presence of a loving, divine Being in one’s life. If my wife told me she was omniscient, and never told me what the market will do tomorrow, but only nice things about love, I’d doubt she was omniscient. I wouldn’t doubt she existed because I have physical evidence, unlike God. It’s not information that matters - it is a communication which is testable. Very easy for God to do. God could easily give evidence for all of us, in which case anyone who cared could go to Heaven. Yeah, I know, there go the property values. I’ve done quite well without a loving god in my life. I’ve done even better without a god who allows floods that kill thousands of innocent children. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/206 "2021-05-12T06:52:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Whether it is real, or merely an adequately convincing illusion, isn’t really germane to the OP’s question, with or without the ‘if’ part. I think the “if” part is vitally important, and I’m not surprised it is being ignored. Sure religion has a point as a social club, as a means of gathering charity, as a way of providing “whys” for those who need them. But a commonly given reason for religion is morality, as in the “if you’re an atheist, what keeps you from killing people” sense. To which we answer, “if it is only belief in god which keeps you from killing, keep on believing.” Religion claims an absolute morality, stemming from God. But if the moral code supposedly coming from the source of morality keeps changing with society’s growth in ethical maturity, it seems we don’t have access to an absolute moral code after all. And that part of religion becomes worthless except in the sense it is one more voice, equal to others, in the ethical debate. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/207 "2021-05-12T10:32:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If my wife told me she was omniscient, and never told me what the market will do tomorrow, but only nice things about love, I’d doubt she was omniscient. I wouldn’t doubt she existed because I have physical evidence, unlike God. If your wife told you nice things about love, without bothering to love you in a way that brought you joy and happiness, then I’d say your relationship was hollow, regardless of your being able to prove her existence. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/208 "2021-05-12T10:36:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve done quite well without a loving god in my life. I’ve done even better without a god who allows floods that kill thousands of innocent children. This thread is “what’s the point of a religion,” not “how do people get by without one?” We can take it as a given that lots of people do just fine without one. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/209 "2021-05-12T12:37:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It’s not information that matters - it is a communication which is testable. Very easy for God to do. > God could easily give evidence for all of us, in which case anyone who cared could go to Heaven. Yeah, I know, there go the property values. Indeed, if He would give enough evidence, belief would be a no-brainer. It seems to me that this would seriously impact our free will to do whatever we want. Let’s suppose for a moment that God does exist, and He wants to prove His existence to us. Can you suggest a way to do that without destroying free will? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/210 "2021-05-12T12:40:01Z")
Just because he is proven to exist doesn’t mean that we would have to follow his commandments. Laws against murder don’t impact our free will. They just impose consequences for exercising it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/211 "2021-05-12T12:43:25Z")
‘Obey my rules or I’ll lock you in the basement and set you on fire… FOREVER!’ isn’t exactly compatible with ‘’‘free will’’’ either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/212 "2021-05-12T12:45:46Z")
If free will is dependent on being ignorant about the existence of a god, then wouldn’t even more ignorance give us even more free will? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/213 "2021-05-12T13:08:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > wouldn’t even more ignorance give us even more free will? That’s pretty much was I was asking/suggesting. It seems to me that there needs to be some sort of balance. If there’s too much ignorance about God, then it’s not possible to do what He expects of us, because we have no way of knowing what it is that He wants. But if there’s too much knowledge of God, then no sane person would dare disobey. It seems to me that the middle road is what we actually have: There’s plenty of evidence available for those who want to believe, but that evidence is weak enough to be ignored by those who want to not believe. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/214 "2021-05-12T13:18:42Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > It seems to me that the middle road is what we actually have: There’s plenty of evidence available for those who want to believe, but that evidence is weak enough to be ignored by those who want to not believe. And that’s why you believe in Quetzcoatl, mighty god of the Aztecs, whose thirst must be quenched with human blood or he will destroy the world? If not, what ‘evidence’ do you think exists for the God of the Christian Bible but not Quetzcoatl or Thor? And how is this argument any different than say, Flat Earth arguments, where any counter evidence you can provide is argued to be faked by a conspiracy promoting Round Eartherism and is therefore actually evidence that the Flat Earther is right? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/215 "2021-05-12T13:36:03Z")
I believe in the God of the _Jewish_ Bible, for a whole bunch of reasons, including that this is how my family raised me, and then I chose to investigate it further, and found it very logical and appealing in many ways, which are not relevant to this discussion. On the other hand, as you amply demonstrate, the evidence is not ironclad. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/216 "2021-05-12T14:14:34Z")
I see - I was raised Jewish as well, and still consider my self to be so - but after a sober examination of God as described in the Bible in my early adulthood, I came to the opposite conclusion about God’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/217 "2021-05-12T16:45:23Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > It seems to me that the middle road is what we actually have: There’s plenty of evidence available for those who want to believe, but that evidence is weak enough to be ignored by those who want to not believe. In this sense, one could say [God is COVID-19](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-now-live-in-a-new-reality-where-pandemics-are-more-common/941218/22). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/218 "2021-05-12T17:15:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > ‘Obey my rules or I’ll lock you in the basement and set you on fire… FOREVER!’ isn’t exactly compatible with ‘’‘free will’‘’ either. I think the very opposite. “Obey my rules or suffer greatly” clearly states that humans do have free will. And the putative god who supposedly laid down that order knows it and designed the system as a consequence of that fact. In other words: You can color inside the lines however you want. And you can color across or outside the lines however you want. Just understand there are inescapable consequences for coloring outside the lines. Now go forth and do as you will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/219 "2021-05-12T17:21:06Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > That’s pretty much was I was asking/suggesting. No, it is _not_. I was trying to point out that tying ignorance to free will is a damn dumb idea, not that we need to have just the right amount of ignorance to achieve it. Let me see if I can clarify what I am saying in such a way that you can’t twist my words to make them agree with what you are promoting: Ignorance Am _Bad_ Is that clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/220 "2021-05-12T17:36:35Z")
Getting back to the OP: There is an attitude of many people these days, especially some progressive Christians, that can be summed up as such: “God is subject to majority human opinion, and must adapt Himself to fit our changing culture” - or, “God is subservient to mankind.” On the topic of LGBT, for instance, some of these people don’t actually deny at all that Scripture contains numerous extremely homophobic verses. But they argue that “It’s the year 2021 now. We’re now a pro-gay society. So Christianity needs to adapt to the times.” When they do so, they’re essentially arguing that God needs to change Himself to accommodate us. How does that make any sense? Planet Earth is the tiniest of specks in the universe. For God to do that would be like President Biden making himself subservient to a termite sitting in the rainforest in Brazil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=12)