# What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865 "2021-03-27T18:44:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/241 "2021-05-12T19:23:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If I understand you, you seem to be saying the buzzphrase “free will” means there are no consequences to one’s decisions. Every decision produces the same outcome or at least equivalently desirable outcomes. I don’t see that. I agree that our decisions have consequences. You can’t exercise your free will to choose chocolate ice cream, and expect it to taste like pistachio. We are in total agreement on that. You have free will to jump from the roof of a tall building. But most people won’t do that. They will refrain from jumping. If they want to experience the exhilaration of a free-fall jump, they will choose to invest the time and money to go skydiving. But I ask you: When they look out the window, and choose to stay inside, do they really WANT to stay inside? I think not. I think they really want to jump. (In fact, I personally would love to experience that fall.) But they fear of dying makes most people choose to stay inside. This is the point I’m trying to stress: They _choose_ to stay safe, even though they _don’t want_ to stay safe. If God’s existence were as obvious as chocolate and gravity, then we would do what He says, but we wouldn’t really want to. We would be “forced” to obey Him, the same as we are “forced” not to jump off the roof. Technically, no one is being forced; it is a free-willed decision. But still, we’re not doing what we want to do. So, I believe that God specifically chooses to hide the evidence of His existence. He designed stuff so that it wouldn’t be possible to prove He’s there. In this manner, no one is forced to believe. We believe only if we choose to do so. Is that a better explanation of how I’m using the term “free will”? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/242 "2021-05-12T19:25:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That wouldn’t be a true religion. Nonsense. You are arguing that a religion MUST be nothing but an eternal and unchanging set of moral value judgements. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. I will certainly agree that US-based fundamentalist Christians do hold to that definition of what “religion” means. AIUI, you’ve said elsewhere that that was the milieu in which you were raised. So it’s hardly surprising you’ve inherited that definition, perhaps unexamined. As you learn more about what the rest of the world thinks and believes, you’ll find that there is vastly more variety in what constitutes “religion” than just that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/243 "2021-05-12T19:28:42Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > You have free will to jump from the roof of a tall building. But most people won’t do that. They will refrain from jumping. Because they have solid evidence of the existence of tall buildings, of gravity, and of what is likely to happen if one jumps from the top of a tall building. Full knowledge is helpful in deciding whether or not to jump from the tall building-Ignorance is _not_. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/244 "2021-05-12T19:35:44Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > So, I believe that God specifically chooses to hide the evidence of His existence. He designed stuff so that it wouldn’t be possible to prove He’s there. In this manner, no one is forced to believe. We believe only if we choose to do so. So, God is like a bridge with a bunch of hidden holes in it, where we are ready to plunge to our death if we take the wrong step, never knowing which step is the right one? That’s less giving free will, and more just ensuring failure. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/245 "2021-05-12T19:39:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Full knowledge is helpful in deciding whether or not to jump from the tall building-Ignorance is _not_ . Agreed. The difference is that God (at least, how I understand Him) does not simply want obedience. That would make Him a tyrant. He wants us to _want_ to follow His ways, and that is not going to happen if our awareness of Him is as obvious as our awareness of tall buildings and gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/246 "2021-05-12T19:41:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, God is like a bridge with a bunch of hidden holes in it, where we are ready to plunge to our death if we take the wrong step, never knowing which step is the right one? That’s less giving free will, and more just ensuring failure. True, unless there is a method, somehow, of figuring out which paths are safe and which are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/247 "2021-05-12T19:44:04Z")
Unfortunately, there are literally thousands of maps that each claim to be the only way to successfully navigate this bridge. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/248 "2021-05-12T19:44:16Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > That would make Him a tyrant. He wants us to _want_ to follow His ways Then he needs to make it clear which set of ways is his in particular, and the only way to do this is to make some sort of appearance and saying " _These_ are the particular set of rules I set forth", otherwise we are back to throwing thousand-sided dice to pick our religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/249 "2021-05-12T19:45:45Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > True, unless there is a method, somehow, of figuring out which paths are safe and which are dangerous Doesn’t _that_ sound mysterious! Could you possibly tell us what this method is? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/250 "2021-05-12T19:46:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Unfortunately, there are literally thousands of maps that each claim to be the only way to successfully navigate this bridge. Yeah, I knew y’all would have that response. Unfortunately, I don’t have much of an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/251 "2021-05-12T19:47:17Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Unfortunately, I don’t have much of an answer. Which is pretty much the answer _I_ expected. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/252 "2021-05-12T19:47:41Z")
Not that our legal system is the best at holding to its ideals, but it’s preferable to a legal system that you will not even know whether or not you broke a law, much less what the punishment for that is going to be, until you are face to face with the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/253 "2021-05-12T19:50:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > but it’s preferable to a legal system that you will not even know whether or not you broke a law, much less what the punishment for that is going to be, until you are face to face with the judge. …at which point you disappear and no one is told, let alone given evidence of, whether you were punished or rewarded. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/254 "2021-05-12T19:52:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If your wife told you nice things about love, without bothering to love you in a way that brought you joy and happiness, then I’d say your relationship was hollow, regardless of your being able to prove her existence. That too, of course. I was referring to the generic “god loves us” message people get. I’ve heard defenders of faith say that don’t you have faith in your spouse? Not really, in the sense that I have 44 years of evidence that she loves me and has been true. When someone asks you to have faith, check your wallet. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/255 "2021-05-12T19:52:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > but it’s preferable to a legal system that you will not even know whether or not you broke a law, much less what the punishment for that is going to be, until you are face to face with the judge. On the other hand, this particular Judge is All-Knowing and can take all mitigating factors into account. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/256 "2021-05-12T19:53:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And doesn’t it strike you as a bit suspicious that the same God who was homophobic for 99% of the duration of human civilization up until recently suddenly turns out to be a gay-friendly God right around the time that human society started becoming pro-LGBT?..A little bit too convenient? As suspicious as the same God who apparently was ok with slavery for 99% of the duration of human civilization suddenly starts to turn out to be an abolitionist God (for some) in the mid 1800s. If one agrees our interpretation of God changes as the Holy Spirit works within us, then we have to be open to admitting that our deep seated beliefs of who God is and what God’s will is can and should change. If one believes that we are flawed and sinful, then we are constantly getting things wrong in our stumble for God. It’s part of the process until the Age to Come. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/257 "2021-05-12T19:54:05Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > On the other hand, this particular Judge is All-Knowing and can take all mitigating factors into account That’s what it says on his business cards, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/258 "2021-05-12T19:54:32Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Agreed. The difference is that God (at least, how I understand Him) does not simply want obedience. That would make Him a tyrant. He wants us to _want_ to follow His ways, and that is not going to happen if our awareness of Him is as obvious as our awareness of tall buildings and gravity. Given that the alternative is eternal torture, I’d say it’s tyrannical. Even Hitler or Kim Jong-Un would at least let you die. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/259 "2021-05-12T19:55:07Z")
If I were trying to make a religion, then I’d at least indicate that as long as you are _trying_ to follow a righteous path, then a benevolent god would not let you fall. They would either clearly mark the holes, or they would move the holes to where you were not going to step. Which would be, of course, why religion would change to stay up to date with society. It’s less about following arbitrary rules and more acting in a way that supports a stable and prosperous society. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/260 "2021-05-12T19:55:43Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > If one agrees our interpretation of God changes as the Holy Spirit works within us, then we have to be open to admitting that our deep seated beliefs of who God is and what God’s will is can and should change. This just tells me that if your god is working within us, he should work a little harder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=14)