# What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865 "2021-03-27T18:44:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/281 "2021-05-13T17:35:02Z")
Said another way, both religion and society are human artifacts that co-evolve. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/282 "2021-05-13T21:27:55Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Said another way, both religion and society are human artifacts that co-evolve. Or society evolves, and religion declines and becomes less and less important in the process. [Religion still relevant as churches lose members – DW – 06/29/2020](https://www.dw.com/en/religion-in-germany-still-relevant/a-53990602#:~:text=In%20Germany%20both%20the%20Catholic,declines%20in%20membership%20in%202019.&text=Germany's%20two%20major%20Christian%20churches,left%20the%20church%20than%20Protestants). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/283 "2021-05-13T21:54:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Through our personal and communal lens. Generally I think we ask what comports with Jesus’ two commandments to love God and love your neighbor and read Scripture through that lens. > > (FWIW, I came to believe in a lot of progressive views: same sex marriage, abolishment of the death penalty, universal health care, dramatic expansion of the welfare state after my conversion through reading of Scripture - the church I became a Christian was conservative and didn’t really believe in any of that and neither did I before I was a Christian. I’m in a far more progressive church now) Thanks for the response. Personal lens I get, but I’m interested in communal lens. Many issues (like abortion and SSM back a while ago) didn’t have a single communal position. You’d have to pick which of several conflicting opinions you were going to adopt. As you found, not everyone reads the Bible in the same way. You used “love my neighbor” as justification for your progressive views. I now don’t suspect you are more moral than the Bible, I know it. Your old church read it differently. My guess that all of us base our morals on society, our upbringing, and our ethical reasoning - and then believers select which parts of the Bible or other holy book supports these. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/284 "2021-05-13T22:09:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > FWIW there are atheists who respect that religion is important to others with positive impacts on their lives, and atheists who are antagonist to belief, actively proselytizing against it. Could you give some examples of this? The most fervent atheist proselytizing I’ve seen barely rises to the level of the signboard you’ll find in front of nearly every church. Do you consider books where an atheist says what I don’t believe and why as proselytizing? How about books responding to theists “proofs” of god? The most active proselytizing I’ve seen isn’t to deconvert anyone, but only to fight against religious laws and rules which take away the rights of those who don’t believe in the majority view, like Blue Laws, prayers in school, and teaching of religious doctrine like creationism in school. Baptists have come to my door. Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door. An atheist? Never. No atheist missionaries either. > [@DSeid](#): > > The majority live and let live atheists don’t generally feel the need to advertise their lack of god belief and are more willing to accept that religion can be a positive force, even while acknowledging that religion, like any tool, can also be used to very harmful ends. From what I heard, in many places coming out of the atheist closet can get you ostracized. In some parts of the world it can get you killed. And coming out of the closet isn’t a term I use lightly. 50 years ago gay people didn’t advertise their sexual preferences either. I’ve been lucky in living in places where this hasn’t been a problem, but it divides some families. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/285 "2021-05-13T22:57:30Z")
I believe so and I believe that many human artifacts have points and serve functions. I do not believe any good is served trying dissuade anyone of religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/286 "2021-05-13T23:05:10Z")
My read of many posts on this board and even in this thread is their representing an actively antagonistic view to faith and to those who have it. Dawkins is good example of a proselytizing atheist. No religious identification (nones) is the fasting growing group in America, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/287 "2021-05-13T23:46:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My read of many posts on this board and even in this thread is their representing an actively antagonistic view to faith and to those who have it. I would have to disagree. What I have seen is antagonistic against those who seek to impose their religion on _others_, but against those of faith and of their faith, I’ve seen very little. Not none, as there are those who I think are looking to antagonize in any way they can, and a religious argument is the excuse, but not the reason. I’ve certainly seen people disagree about the existence of deities in debate, but that’s not being antagonistic against faith and those who have it, that’s simply disagreeing with someone else’s opinion. > [@DSeid](#): > > Dawkins is good example of a proselytizing atheist. I’d say that he’s the closest, but that example kinda shows how far from proselytizing atheist really are. Compare him to any televangelist, and tell me which one is actually trying to get you to follow him, rather than think for yourself. > [@DSeid](#): > > No religious identification (nones) is the **fasting** growing group in America, FWIW. My bold I’m not one to nit-pick typose, but in this context, that one is quite amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/288 "2021-05-14T00:08:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No religious identification (nones) is the fasting growing group in America, FWIW. I would guess that is an attempt at self-preservation by those who don’t believe. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/289 "2021-05-14T00:09:39Z")
😀 After covid year I may need to do some fasting myself!!! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/290 "2021-05-14T00:09:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I believe so and I believe that many human artifacts have points and serve functions. I do not believe any good is served trying dissuade anyone of religious belief. Do you have the same advice for those who promote their religion? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/291 "2021-05-14T00:10:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Compare him to any televangelist, and tell me which one is actually trying to get you to follow him, rather than think for yourself. Like who? Who are the televangelists nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/292 "2021-05-14T00:36:47Z")
Trying to find daylight between what you actually said, and my description of it. Not seeing any. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/293 "2021-05-14T00:50:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Like who? Who are the televangelists nowadays? > **[List of television evangelists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_evangelists)** > > This is a list of notable television evangelists. While a global list, most are from the United States. is from Wikipedia. > **[6 Famously Awful Televangelists Who Are Somehow Still Around](https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-famously-awful-televangelists-who-are-somehow-still-around)** > > TV preachers are still around (and still crazy). Is a Cracked article from 2018. It’s not like there are fewer, despite the ones busted for sex and money scandals. Before I had Sirius, in some parts of the country nearly every AM station I tuned into had someone preaching. A bet that with a little bit of work you could find cable channels full of these clowns. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/294 "2021-05-14T00:59:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Personal lens I get, but I’m interested in communal lens. Many issues (like abortion and SSM back a while ago) didn’t have a single communal position. You’d have to pick which of several conflicting opinions you were going to adopt. Communal lens is generally through your local church or tradition. There are different ways to read Scripture but there are some general positions that people coalesce around. Like of like how in Judaism you had schools based on a certain rabbi. I mean most people don’t read ancient Greek or Hebrew. So it helps when people who can tell you what it says. > [@](#): > > As you found, not everyone reads the Bible in the same way. You used “love my neighbor” as justification for your progressive views. I now don’t suspect you are more moral than the Bible, I know it. Your old church read it differently. So how do you explain my moderate Republican atheism when my views were diametrically different? 😉 (Granted, I wanted civil unions for LGBTQ but I wasn’t for gay marriage). Oh and I came around on the economic views after reading the Old Testament, not the New. Put it this way, I went from George Will to Elizabeth Warren in 2 years with my conversion as the demarcation line. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/295 "2021-05-14T01:03:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My read of many posts on this board and even in this thread is their representing an actively antagonistic view to faith and to those who have it. > > Dawkins is good example of a proselytizing atheist. Anyone attacking religious posters would and should be shut down by the mods. Back before your time, I think, every so often we’d get an atheist coming into GD from outside ranting about religion. Doper atheists asked for logical justification as fast or faster than theists did. Now, do you consider someone attacking a belief in a Flat Earth as actively antagonistic (and somehow obnoxious.) Creationism? Chemtrails? Dawkins - who appears to be an asshole in other respects - proselytized how? For having the nerve to write a book? To have the nerve to go on interview shows? To participate in debates on atheism? (Do you think he proselytizes evolution also, and is that wrong?) To have the nerve to pay for some ads on London buses saying that there almost certainly isn’t a god? As for nones, I wonder how many are atheists and how many are apathists. Back 50 years ago the gay guy who edited the veterans group magazine my father ran was a “confirmed bachelor.” Kind of the same thing today. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/296 "2021-05-14T02:49:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Trying to find daylight between what you actually said, and my description of it. Not seeing any Then your “translation” wasn’t really necessary in the first place, was it? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/297 "2021-05-14T03:25:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have the same advice for those who promote their religion? Yes. I think both are disrespecting the beliefs of others. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/298 "2021-05-14T03:27:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > to pay for some ads on London buses saying that there almost certainly isn’t a god? Yes that is proselytizing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/299 "2021-05-14T04:23:10Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Communal lens is generally through your local church or tradition. There are different ways to read Scripture but there are some general positions that people coalesce around. Like of like how in Judaism you had schools based on a certain rabbi. > > I mean most people don’t read ancient Greek or Hebrew. So it helps when people who can tell you what it says. But how did you pick the church with these views? That’s what I meant. I went to a very moderate Conservative temple as a kid, partly due to accident of location and based on what my father picked. And it probably had something to do with what they charged for Hebrew School, knowing him. And I became an atheist the very second I learned that Moses did not write the Bible. The whole belief structure fell apart. I was a Republican atheist also. Who knows why beliefs change. In my case it was exposure to new information. Sometimes it is opening ones eyes. BTW, given what a big change SSM was, full points in my book for civil unions. After all, that’s where Obama was at the beginning. My good opinion of your beliefs has not changed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/300 "2021-05-14T04:30:31Z")
> **[Atheist Bus Campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The Atheist Bus Campaign was an advertising campaign in 2008 and 2009 that aimed to place "peaceful and upbeat" messages about atheism on transport media in Britain, in response to evangelical Christian advertising. > It was created by comedy writer Ariane Sherine and launched on 21 October 2008, with official support from the British Humanist Association and Richard Dawkins. The campaign's original goal was to raise £5,500 to run 30 buses acros... The text read: There’s probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life. No call to action, except enjoying one’s life. And it was done in reaction to Christian ads. If Christians’ only outreach was running bus ads, I probably wouldn’t consider them to be proselytizing either. Hell, on my Stan Freberg boxed set I have an ad he did for the Lutherans telling people to go to church, since you never know what golfing on Sunday instead will do to you. An atheist running something similar would probably really catch hell, as it were. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=16)