# What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865 "2021-03-27T18:44:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/61 "2021-03-29T19:07:46Z")
Maybe I’m fighting the hypothetical here, but there aren’t really any religions that have such specific tenets. I guess there may have been, but they haven’t survived, as society changed. Religion is like any other meme – the ones that survive are the ones that can adapt to changing conditions, just like organisms that survive are the ones that can adapt to a changing environment. So, a successful religion will have general, unfalsifiable things as its tenets – God is love, faith in God can get you to the (unprovable) afterlife, we do these things as part of our agreement with (an unknowable) God. If I were to start a religion that had, as its foundational principle, that I’m god and will actually live forever in this world and not grow old, well, as soon as I grew old and died, the religion would fall apart as well. There are tons of cults that fall apart when the founder dies or when some predicted event fails to come about. So, if the foundational tenet is God is love or you can be saved through faith or whatever, there’s no reason why the details can’t be changed to adapt to changing society. Religions that can’t do that don’t make it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/62 "2021-03-29T22:24:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Depends on the religion. There are wide swaths of Christianity which believe that Scripture is man’s attempt to write down the story of God, and no human writing can adequately understand the entire thinking of God. It’s why we still have theology - to continue work these things out. Except when someone wants his followers to do something, in which case he claims to understand the intentions of God just fine. If God says “don’t eat pork” we can argue endlessly over what god’s reasons are for saying that, but we can’t really argue about what he said, can we? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/63 "2021-03-29T22:28:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, a successful religion will have general, unfalsifiable things as its tenets – God is love, faith in God can get you to the (unprovable) afterlife, we do these things as part of our agreement with (an unknowable) God. You must never have met a Baptist. The truth of the Bible is certainly a tenet of some religions, and it can be falsified. But falsification assumes that a party is willing to be shown wrong. I’ve seen a video clip of a preacher saying “if the Bible said 2 + 2 = 5, I’d believe it.” And I know a woman, not a Baptist but even worse, who is a Flat Earther because she thinks the Bible says that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/64 "2021-03-29T22:43:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > ARE most gods perfect? The Christian God is, but really, none of the Hindu gods strike me as in the least bit perfect. Pagan gods don’t tend to be perfect. And Buddha himself strives…that’s sort of the point in a lot of Buddhist sects. And I’ll defer to someone who is actually Jewish, but the Jewish version of God seems to change his mind a LOT through the Old Testament. Unless my Eastern religions class in college was way off, the Buddha was not a god at all, and I liked Buddhism as not having any gods at all, at least in some versions. Now it makes some claims about the universe I doubt, but I wouldn’t criticize it a bit. I am Jewish, and Judaism is tribal as opposed to being a set of beliefs you must accept. Thus the different versions which have different opinions of whether you have to follow the laws exactly. Pagan gods were neither omnipotent or ominbenevolent - often not benevolent at all. I don’t know how pagan religions would react to change, since they flourished in a time of relatively little change. What kind of moral rules did they enforce, anyway? Most of the ones from Western religions those gods flouted. The God in my Bible changed his mind early when he interacted directly with people - in other words, when he was more like a pagan god. A good reason for that God not being real either. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/65 "2021-03-29T22:59:32Z")
I guess the Baptists are who the OP has in mind, because they haven’t shifted much on gay marriage or the equality of women, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/66 "2021-03-29T23:02:13Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > What you are missing here is that Christianity is a reform of Judaism, somewhat analogous to Buddhism as a reform of Hinduism. There are several important facets to this reform. One is “you shall love thy neighbor as thyself” or “Love one another,” --most celebrated on Maundy Thursday (the day before Good Friday), named for mandatum, commandment, when he states he is giving his disciples this new commandment. I hope you are aware that the Golden Rule, while in the Torah, was called important by Hillel who died in 10 CE. So let’s not say this was somehow different from Judaism - or any kind of reform. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Another important facet is the idea that his teachings are not solely for Jews, and that the intricate laws of the Hebrew scriptures may be dispensed with if you adhere to the few important ones. Also, “go and make disciples” – Judaism was and is a non-evangelical religion. > > The idea that every precept recorded in the Hebrew scriptures over two thousand years is valid and binding upon Christians is an anti-Christian argument that no Christian could take seriously. Jesus dealt with the subject that himself, although Paul was the explicator of what that could mean for the heterogenous communities he founded. And this plays into the evolutionary view of religion we were talking about above. Just as natural selection is about reproductive advantage, a religion emphasizing getting converts is going to be relatively successful. Islam did this also. What God wants or says has nothing to do with it. One important feature of sales is removing things that will keep your customers from buying. Potential customer likes shellfish. Boom, there go the Kosher laws. God used to be fine with other nations not worshiping him, since they were not part of the Covenant and so were not covered by the rules. The question is, what does god want of those who worship him. A lot more in the old days. The two things I see that explain the new rules are the changes made for marketing purposes and the changes from the rather nutty world view of people like Paul. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/67 "2021-03-29T23:08:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I guess the Baptists are who the OP has in mind, because they haven’t shifted much on gay marriage or the equality of women, for example. Baptists have a pretty consistent explanation of why they believe in things. Their problem comes when the Bible recommends stuff our modern moral view finds horrific. Like slavery. The rest seem to pick and choose based on secular ethics, with theology explaining the choice as best it could. Admirable, but not much different than you’d get from working from pure spirituality. And then you have the Catholics who as best I understand it base salvation on forgiveness for original sin which happened in an Eden they now admit never existed. Beats the hell out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/68 "2021-03-29T23:10:39Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > God is eternal and unchanging. What he willed yesterday is his will at all times past, present, and future. The fact that God manifested as Jesus here on Earth in order to forgive mankind of our sins pretty much makes it impossible for any Christian to claim that God is unchanging. The whole religion is based on the central tenet that God changed his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/69 "2021-03-29T23:29:57Z")
Despite Voyager’s irreverent and flippant tone, I think the point is essentially valid. Religions evolve, and those that appeal to enough people, survive and even multiply. The Divine, in its ultimate and unknowable form, is unchanging in the sense that it exists eternally. Every religion has its own cultural, political, and historical interpretation of the Divine, which does not change it or indeed affect it in any way. That’s my possibly heretical opinion. The only two religions I have directly participated in, in any depth, are Mahayana Buddhism and Roman Catholicism. There are places they intersect, believe it or not. I feel both comfortable and uncomfortable with both. The moral and political aspects of religions and sects reflect the diversity, or lack of it, in the societies in which they have their being. Schisms happen when there is pent up desire for change and the dominant religion will not make those changes. But those are, to me, the surfaces of religions, not their foundations. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/70 "2021-03-29T23:43:06Z")
Buddha is a god in some sects of Buddhism, much like Jesus is a God (or an aspect of god) in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/71 "2021-03-30T00:16:57Z")
Another thing we also observe, it is not unusual for some religious organization or even mere sect thereof to claim for itself that it is “the real” version of the Faith that has survived all these years being truly faithful, even if we can document that no one had heard of them before X date and even when we have the very writings of their historic leaders showing changes. . . Meanwhile, some religious traditions who claim to have must-follow Holy Writ have also openly owned some or much of it as allegorical/symbolic or open to nitpickery for a long time, keepting theologians employed for centuries. It’s not like anyone just noticed _that_ recently. Heck, that is part of the reason for the rise of fundamentalism, people questioning “how come the theologians keep finessing what we can plainly read.” The fundamentalist asks himself the question of the thread title and gets an answer many of us don’t like… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/72 "2021-03-30T00:36:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The fact that God manifested as Jesus here on Earth in order to forgive mankind of our sins pretty much makes it impossible for any Christian to claim that God is unchanging. The whole religion is based on the central tenet that God changed his mind. True. But. (and assuming _arguendo_ the whole idea behind the Abrahamic god isn’t pure man-made bunk.) As you say, via Jesus God has demonstrated his ability and willingness to change his mind and tell/show us about that change. Where the e.g. Baptists run off the rails is in insisting that next time he gives a similarly obvious sign they’ll believe it. But until then it is absolutely positively steady as she goes. So changing guidance is possible, but definitely hasn’t happened. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/73 "2021-03-30T00:57:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Where the e.g. Baptists run off the rails is in insisting that next time he gives a similarly obvious sign they’ll believe it. With Muslims saying “He did and you didn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/74 "2021-03-30T01:00:20Z")
Agreed. Which is why it’s demonstrably bunk all the way down. Any actual diety so incompetent at getting its instructions to its subjects deserves the chaotic worship it gets in return. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/75 "2021-03-30T01:08:51Z")
I sent a truck, a boat, and a helicopter… ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/76 "2021-03-30T01:26:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > > Depends on the religion. There are wide swaths of Christianity which believe that Scripture is man’s attempt to write down the story of God, and no human writing can adequately understand the entire thinking of God. It’s why we still have theology - to continue work these things out. > > Except when someone wants his followers to do something, in which case he claims to understand the intentions of God just fine. > If God says “don’t eat pork” we can argue endlessly over what god’s reasons are for saying that, but we can’t really argue about what he said, can we? Those swaths of Christianity don’t necessary believe they can completely understand the intentions of God. As an Emory University Divinity Professor once indicated to me, it’s far better and more accurate to say this is what we believe to be the intentions of God, based upon our interpretation of Scripture. Keeping open the possiblity we may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/77 "2021-03-30T01:50:07Z")
To misquote Lewis Carroll in a manner which I find myself doing often - > “When I quote scripture,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ > > ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make scripture mean so many different things.’ > > ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/78 "2021-03-30T02:21:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I sent a truck, a boat, and a helicopter… You win the thread hands down. Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/79 "2021-03-30T02:28:19Z")
“Jokes” can be the most succinct way of stating an issue. Jokes are often so very serious, if you know what I mean and I’m sure you do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/80 "2021-03-30T07:31:49Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Buddha is a god in some sects of Buddhism, much like Jesus is a God (or an aspect of god) in Christianity. That came up in my class also. I was quite disappointed. I take it as an indication that the need for god belief is deep in many of our psyches. Not mine, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=5)