# What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865 "2021-03-27T18:44:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/81 "2021-03-30T07:38:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Those swaths of Christianity don’t necessary believe they can completely understand the intentions of God. As an Emory University Divinity Professor once indicated to me, it’s far better and more accurate to say this is what we believe to be the intentions of God, based upon our interpretation of Scripture. Keeping open the possiblity we may be wrong. Which makes me think that God has a part time job writing computer manuals, since any decent deity would be able to dictate a Holy Book that doesn’t have this sort of problem. I think God needed a critique group. Yeah I know there was a Rev 2, but it threw out most of Rev 1. I’m going to start a new religion around the concept that the Bible is a Beta version, and the real one is behind schedule like real manuals often are. When the trumpets sound, the saved won’t be floating into the air, the final version of the Bible will be raining down. And I can claim that I have a sneak peek, available for a small donation. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/82 "2021-03-30T08:09:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I can claim that I have a sneak peek, available for a small donation. It’s a well worn idea. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/83 "2021-03-30T10:06:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Practically speaking, this is true. But religions claim that they are a reflection - a rendering - of the thinking of God. Unless God evolves, which most gods won’t do since they are perfect, religion should not either. That’s the exact same mistake the OP makes and which I already covered. There is no inherent reason why an unchanging God would result in an unchanging religion. If, like Christianity, your religion posits that Man is imperfect, then imperfect Man is going to make mistakes in their attempt to understand God. Man may then discover those mistakes by exploring reality or even God himself, and thus their understanding will change. The entire premise of the OP is wrong: religion isn’t this set of rules that everyone knows is from God. It’s an attempt by man to understand God. Someone may have divine inspiration, but it’s still filtered through a man’s thoughts, and what said man knows about the world. The reason religion exists is that it is a search for Truth. Not just factual truth, but full on truth. That said, if you learn facts that contradict what you thought was Truth, you’d better change it. Morals do come out of religion, sure. But they’re general. Yes, some of those morals also occur to those who are not religious. Not all of them, though. Religions often posit a radical idea, like Jesus and his forgiveness stuff. And, well, current secular morality is heavily influenced by Christianity where Christianity was common, and by other religions where those were common. People act like secular morality evolved on its own out of the whole cloth, but it didn’t. You have said that you don’t see a difference between philosophy and religion. I would argue the difference is much more semantic than substantial. Generally speaking, religion is this subset of philosophy that proposes supernatural elements. Though, in another sense, it’s just more practical philosophy, or the way of life of a group of people, including their shared beliefs and rituals. I’m not here to convince you that my religion is true. That’s not the subject of this thread. It posits that religion is useless if it changes. Many people have shown various reasons otherwise. I even argue that religion has a purpose of finding Truth. But I argue that the whole framing of this is wrong, because it is the religion that doesn’t change that is useless. It is just worshiping some human’s idea of God, rather then seeking God. God may not change, but of course his people will as they learn more about Him and his creation. Religion doesn’t exist to be this didactic set of rules. We follow rules because we think they’re right, that they’re True. Religion is a large part of how we learn. Science is something we (religious people) discovered to look at facts, but religion fills in other things. And if you don’t believe in anything, then, well, I hope you are able to find a fulfilling life regardless. I know I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/84 "2021-03-30T11:44:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If God says “don’t eat pork” we can argue endlessly over what god’s reasons are for saying that, but we can’t really argue about what he said, can we? But sometimes God says “Don’t eat meat on Friday” and the church decides that beavers are fish. There’s always a workaround. In 1966 when they decided that Catholics could eat meat on Fridays during most of the year, except during lent I idly wondered what happened to all the people who got sent to hell in the centuries past. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/85 "2021-03-30T12:54:49Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > But sometimes God says “Don’t eat meat on Friday” Has the Catholic Church (or anyone else) ever said that _God_ says “Don’t eat meat on Friday”? i.e. does it claim that such a rule comes directly from God? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/86 "2021-03-30T13:05:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People act like secular morality evolved on its own out of the whole cloth, but it didn’t. I’m pretty sure this is false. Even chimps show moral behavior. [Cite.](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150625112010.htm) I think morals quite literally evolved. To me, it’s much more likely that human morality was codified in some religions. Here’s another [cite](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/morality_animals) regarding morality in animals. > [@BigT](#): > > Religions often posit a radical idea, like Jesus and his forgiveness stuff. Here you seem to be implying that Jesus invented forgiveness or something? Otherwise, what’s the radical idea? Are you saying that other religions don’t have any forgiveness? I think Judaism, for example, has very specific cleansing rituals in order to be forgiven (but I’m no expert). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/87 "2021-03-30T13:21:00Z")
I can’t speak for non-Christian religions, but it has been my experience that the various different Christian churches are 90% man made rules and 10% actual theology. For example, “love one another” is an actual theologically based mandate, “don’t eat pork” is not. That 90% should be subject to change as people become more enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/88 "2021-03-30T13:41:55Z")
That would be “don’t eat meat on Fridays” – the pork thing _is_ OT Scriptural but is later stated in the Book of Acts to not apply to Gentile Christians. But yes, you are right in that a whole lot of what many “Christians” think is divine mandate, are really specific regulations or codified traditions proclaimed by the different church bureaucracies or schools of thought. To keep using that example, the “real sin” was not the eating of meat (whatever creatures that included according to the bishops’ latest letter) _per se_, it was the disobeying of the Church’s instruction about it (because God conveniently says obey your authorities). ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/89 "2021-03-30T13:47:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Has the Catholic Church (or anyone else) ever said that _God_ says “Don’t eat meat on Friday”? i.e. does it claim that such a rule comes directly from God? No. It is simply an aid to spiritual reflection. The idea is that a week is the entire liturgical year in miniature, so Fridays are tiny Good Fridays (the day of the Crucifixion). Fasting from meat is a way of Catholics reminding themselves of the sacrifice Jesus made. Originally the fast was from food entirely. There are many many traditions-become-rules like this which have accreted to Christian practice over the centuries, and since the RCC is both the oldest church in the West and not famous for embracing newfangled ideas, it has more stuff like this than most. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/90 "2021-03-30T17:02:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Another thing we also observe, it is not unusual for some religious organization or even mere sect thereof to claim for itself that it is “the real” version of the Faith that has survived all these years being truly faithful, even if we can document that no one had heard of them before X date and even when we have the very writings of their historic leaders showing changes. And speaking of mormonism, they have a rather novel take on this: > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The fact that God manifested as Jesus here on Earth in order to forgive mankind of our sins pretty much makes it impossible for any Christian to claim that God is unchanging. The whole religion is based on the central tenet that God changed his mind. Mormons are of the opinion that the whole Jesus thing was planned well in advance of the earth even being created. And it was a volunteer thing - God was like (paraphrased) “I need to have somebody gorily murdered while I watch in order to sate my bloodlust to help me to suppress my rage at you dirty sinners so that I can forgive you dirty sinners. Any takers?” And then Lucifer was like “I’ll do it - I want the glory of being your sacrifice!” And God was like “No, it’s bad to want glory.” And Jesus was like “Okay then, I’ll do it, but I explicitly am not in it for the glory.” And God was like, “Sweet - here, have all the glory.” (And then Jesus may or may not have smiled smugly at Lucifer, though that’s not recorded anywhere.) Mt point is, that while there _are_ cases in the bible where God indisputably changed his tactics and apologized (notably, Noah), the Jesus thing isn’t really one of them. Most christian sects believe that the Jesus thing was planned and prophesied well in advance - Jesus wasn’t God changing his mind; it was God having a little crucifixion party right on schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/91 "2021-03-30T17:20:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Mt point is, that while there _are_ cases in the bible where God indisputably changed his tactics and apologized (notably, Noah), the Jesus thing isn’t really one of them. Most christian sects believe that the Jesus thing was planned and prophesied well in advance - Jesus wasn’t God changing his mind; it was God having a little crucifixion party right on schedule. Is there a word for prophecies that aren’t revealed to the public until after the fact? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/92 "2021-03-30T17:24:50Z")
Convenient? I’m not trying to say any of this stuff is credible (as should be _really_ obvious), but if we’re talking about whether a religion has to adapt to a changing god, even the _pretense_ of precognition is an argument that the god is probably unchanging. Because if a god is both all-powerful and has precognition, everything that could possibly happen is according to his plan anyway. And of course it’s quite common in christianity for it to said that everything is God’s plan anyway - and if everything is going according to plan, then he hasn’t changed his mind. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/93 "2021-03-30T17:37:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Exactly right if religion is just an ethical system which should evolve as we figure out more about ethics from philosophical discussion. From a philosophical standpoint (I am an atheist) the reason that the rules would change is for the same reason that a 5 year old has to follow different rules than a 10 year old, a 15 year old, or a 20 year old. If there were a god that was laying down these rules, it would actually make sense for the rules to be updated and evolve as we become more mature and capable of understanding the reasons for the rules. Blind adherence to the letter of the rule becomes less necessary when one will willingly adhere to the intent behind the rule. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/94 "2021-03-30T17:43:09Z")
This doesn’t really mesh well with an evolution from “slavery is okay” to “slavery is okay, but maybe don’t mistreat the slaves so much” to “maybe we’re against it after all.” Generally children are given stricter, more draconian rules with little explanation, and as people get older the rules are relaxed and more explanations are given with the expectation that the now-grown person will continue to give you the behavior you really want, now because of a shared understanding. This doesn’t really track with theological rules that trail societal morals. With those you would have to conclude that God likes slavery (or one of its byproducts), and just now wants us to to grow as a society to embrace slavery on our own without it being commanded. It works okay with the “don’t eat so much meat” kind of rules, though. (Give or take the lack of follow-up explanations.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/95 "2021-03-30T18:18:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > This doesn’t really mesh well with an evolution from “slavery is okay” to “slavery is okay, but maybe don’t mistreat the slaves so much” to “maybe we’re against it after all.” Generally children are given stricter, more draconian rules with little explanation, and as people get older the rules are relaxed and more explanations are given with the expectation that the now-grown person will continue to give you the behavior you really want, now because of a shared understanding. Societies don’t mature the same way that people do. It was an analogy, and analogies aren’t perfect, if they were, they would simply be a description. Slavery existed before religion ever had a say in it, giving slaves some level of rights was actually quite a step up. Try telling a slave owner why they shouldn’t beat their slave to death using morality or reason. Not gonna happen. Tell them that “God said so.” and now you have a draconian rule with little explanation that the slave owner must follow, even if he doesn’t understand why. Later, more enlightened societies could understand that slavery itself was wrong. Just like a toddler, they have always pooped, and they may not understand the reason why you want them to poop in the toilet, and not on the floor. It’s a draconian rule little explanation. Later, the toddler will grow to be more mature, and not only understand why they need to poop in the toilet and not on the floor, but also more advanced things, like when and how to excuse oneself to the toilet in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/96 "2021-03-30T18:27:48Z")
So the argument is that God didn’t just straight-up ban slavery is because he didn’t think people would listen to him? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/97 "2021-03-30T18:47:05Z")
The question asked in the OP goes right to the heart of my own philosophical “theory of everything.” Speaking objectively, the question “What is the purpose of life?” is nonsensical. Biological life is not driven by a positive purpose; it flows passively into spaces in the habitat left open by any number or combination of environmental forces.\* However, insofar as the human intellect creates for itself other, internal, eternal environments for itself, understanding and defining our _own_ individual and metaphorical purpose is a nearly universal urge. In that sense then, our "purpo \*Using “environmental forces” as a catchall phrase to include everything from less-competitive species to volcanic creation if new land. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/98 "2021-03-30T19:06:57Z")
There are 2 other things I’d like to discuss/mention: In some sense, the whole point of a religion is that it needs to be willing to _ **flout** _ majority public opinion. I don’t want to get into a detailed historical discussion of Nazism, for fear of sidetracking or Godwinizing the thread, but in a fascist Germany-occupied Europe where it was considered perfectly good to oppress or kill Jews, the whole reason people like the ten Booms harbored Jews in secret was because they _ **didn’t** _ adapt their religion to fit changing society. If they had said, “Well, times are changing, and now oppressing Jews is the thing to do, so we should go with the flow,” then what good would their religion have been? Also, some religions seem to be much better at sticking to their guns than others. There are dozens of pork-eating nations (such as the United States and all of Europe) that have significant Muslim populaces, yet you don’t see Muslims ever yielding on their “no pork” rule. They never say, “Our surrounding culture loves kielbasa and bacon, so it’s time we adapted.” Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/99 "2021-03-30T19:09:27Z")
No, that’s not the argument that I am making. It’s far more complicated than that. Being an atheist, I would say that it is more that the people making this stuff up didn’t straight up ban slavery because they didn’t think that people would listen. But, for a more generous perspective, slavery was a part of society. It was in many ways necessary. There were not enough people willing to do the work necessary to keep a civilization going, so some had to do it unwillingly. If slavery had been abolished in the bronze age, then civilization would have fallen. Society was not ready to be slavery free, it was not mature enough economically or technologically. Whether through edict from god or law from a secular position, abolishing slavery in the bronze age and prior was simply a no-go. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865/100 "2021-03-30T19:15:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In some sense, the whole point of a religion is that it needs to be willing to _ **flout** _ majority public opinion. Not really. It has been more typically imposing the majority opinion upon minority views, preferring a cohesive society to a diverse one. > [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t want to get into a detailed historical discussion of Nazism That’s good, because you don’t really demonstrate a very good understanding of the history there. > [@Velocity](#): > > but in a fascist Germany-occupied Europe where it was considered perfectly good to oppress or kill Jews The majority didn’t really want to do this. It’s just that the majority also wasn’t willing to stick up for them, and allowed a minority to get their way. > [@Velocity](#): > > If they had said, “Well, times are changing, and now oppressing Jews is the thing to do, so we should go with the flow,” then what good would their religion have been? The Nazis did in fact use religious justifications for their oppression of minorities. > [@Velocity](#): > > Also, some religions seem to be much better at sticking to their guns than others. There are dozens of pork-eating nations (such as the United States and all of Europe) that have significant Muslim populaces, yet you don’t see Muslims ever yielding on their “no pork” rule. Yes I do. Many don’t but there are plenty of people who were raised Muslim who eat pork. > [@Velocity](#): > > They never say, “Our surrounding culture loves kielbasa and bacon, so it’s time we adapted.” Why is that? I’m not sure what you mean by “never” here, as it happens regularly. It is the case that there are some who will never “adapt” as you say, but that doesn’t mean that there are not and will not be significant parts of the religious culture that do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-a-religion-if-it-constantly-updates-to-adapt-to-changing-society/938865.md?page=6)