# What's the point of being vegetarian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868 "2004-08-08T06:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/81 "2004-08-11T10:55:55Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I would like to know though, if there are any vegetarians in this thread who believe that hunting a free-living animal like a deer is more or less unethical than beef farming, and why they think what they do. Certainly. The **kabbess** is a vegetarian. She says that she would, in theory, eat freshly hunted game. This is because her objection is to the conditions that farm animals are kept in and not to the eating of meat _per se_. She’s not a sentimentalist – it isn’t the animal _death_ that she objects to so much as the way that it leads its _life_. pan ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/82 "2004-08-11T11:36:24Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I would like to know though, if there are any vegetarians in this thread who believe that hunting a free-living animal like a deer is more or less unethical than beef farming, and why they think what they do. As I have stated either in this thread or in the Pit thread (cannot remember and am too lazy to check), I have absolutely no problem with eating wild animals. I don’t have a problem with the slaughter of cows either, just their conditions of living prior to being killed. My reasons are that animals kept in poor conditions suffer, but a hunter’s bullet causes no suffering (unless you miss, and if you do, I hope you follow up with a killing shot rather quickly). ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/83 "2004-08-11T12:31:09Z")
There is definitely a distinction then, between vegetarians who do not eat meat because of the way the food animals live, and those who do not eat meat because of animal deaths. Do any of you vegetarians in this thread ever have disagreements with the proselytizing type? Also what do vegetarians here think of this premise that was brought up by my vegetarian/vegan extreme cousin: Honey production is morally wrong because it involves the enslavement of bees? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/84 "2004-08-11T12:46:04Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > There is definitely a distinction then, between vegetarians who do not eat meat because of the way the food animals live, and those who do not eat meat because of animal deaths. > > Do any of you vegetarians in this thread ever have disagreements with the proselytizing type? > > Also what do vegetarians here think of this premise that was brought up by my vegetarian/vegan extreme cousin: Honey production is morally wrong because it involves the enslavement of bees? I think your problem is one of overgeneralisation. What do omnivores think of that proposition? What do white people think of it? What do Republicans think of it? What do Christians think of it? Vegetarians only have one thing in common – they don’t eat meat. Even the reasons for this tend to vary hugely from individual to individual. Even amongst those with the same reason, they will have very different beliefs as regards propositions not relating to that reason. You’re trying to group about 30 million to 100 million people together to answer a complex question. It’s not going to happen. pan ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/85 "2004-08-11T12:53:07Z")
No, my problem is that I’m asking questions about what vegetarians think of other vegetarians so that I can find out how ‘diverse’ vegetarains are, and I’m getting told I’m generalizing. I have a hell of a lot more experience with what omnivores think of proselytizing vegetarians and vegetarians like my extremist cousin, so it’s more interesting to talk to vegetarians about this than it is omnivores. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/86 "2004-08-11T13:03:30Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > No, my problem is that I’m asking questions about what vegetarians think of other vegetarians so that I can find out how ‘diverse’ vegetarains are, and I’m getting told I’m generalizing. > > I have a hell of a lot more experience with what omnivores think of proselytizing vegetarians and vegetarians like my extremist cousin, so it’s more interesting to talk to vegetarians about this than it is omnivores. OK then, no problem. I have never come across a proselytizing vegetarian. Neither has the **kabbess**. I know this because I have talked about the matter with her. However, in principle, she finds the idea of them annoying because they provide strident omnivores with an excuse to constantly carp about her choice as to what she eats. Is that a fair answer? pan ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/87 "2004-08-11T13:10:20Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Do any of you vegetarians in this thread ever have disagreements with the proselytizing type? I’ve never met one, but I’d probably be annoyed if I had. > [@](#): > > Also what do vegetarians here think of this premise that was brought up by my vegetarian/vegan extreme cousin: Honey production is morally wrong because it involves the enslavement of bees? This is where I’m eagerly awaiting some eradication of my ignorance. I know way too little about honey production to be able to answer that question. Luckily, I almost never use honey. I own one jar that’s like five or six years old and still more than half full, so I have the best part of a decade to work out my moral stance regarding honey production. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/88 "2004-08-11T13:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **kabbes** said: > I have never come across a proselytizing vegetarian. Neither has the kabbess. I know this because I have talked about the matter with her. However, in principle, she finds the idea of them annoying because they provide strident omnivores with an excuse to constantly carp about her choice as to what she eats. > > Is that a fair answer? Yeah, totally fair. And also refreshing to see viewpoints that aren’t those of the very extreme and very vocal type people like the ALF groups that get heard cause they make so much noise. > [@](#): > > **Priceguy** said: > This is where I’m eagerly awaiting some eradication of my ignorance. Her problem with it was something about how the bees were forced to live in wooden hives, they were abused by the smoke that the beekeepers use, and that the products of their labor were stolen while they were forced to eat only foods that the beekeeper found appropriate because it would ‘taste better’ to people as honey, and she also thought that thousands of bees died horribly in ‘mass murders’ if they tried to attack the beekeeper who invaded their home. I have to admit, I don’t know much about bee farming, and neither does she. Then again, this is the same cousin who bitches about cruelty to beef cattle while wearing leather, so I tend to see her as one of those ‘wacked out hypocritical extremists’. Exposure to her has probably caused damage in my perception of vegetarians in general, but this thread is helping that a lot. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/89 "2004-08-11T13:32:51Z")
A lot of people can’t stand the ALF. A lot of the people who can’t stand them are the silent vegetarian majority. I’m sure you also have a belief that is taken to an extreme by a very vocal group that makes your palms itch. However, I live with extremist whitterings via the following rationalisation: society tends towards the centre ground. So it never hurts to have extremists from ALL camps pulling the debate towards areas that would otherwise simply be ignored. As long as those extremists gain no actual power, the issues they highlight may actually be useful. Doesn’t mean that they don’t make me angry, mind. pan ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/90 "2004-08-11T13:45:26Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Her problem with it was something about how the bees were forced to live in wooden hives Don’t know anything about this nor how bees feel about living in wooden hives. By the way, it’s not like they can’t leave and form a new colony elsewhere. > [@](#): > > they were abused by the smoke that the beekeepers use This one I can see. I don’t know the facts, though. > [@](#): > > that the products of their labor were stolen I have a really hard time imagining bees sitting around complaining that someone steals their honey. > [@](#): > > they were forced to eat only foods that the beekeeper found appropriate because it would ‘taste better’ to people as honey This one I can see too, but I don’t know the facts here either. > [@](#): > > thousands of bees died horribly in ‘mass murders’ if they tried to attack the beekeeper who invaded their home. This makes no sense. Killing a bee horribly is much more difficult than killing it quickly. Why would the beekeeper take the time to kill them horribly? Is he expecting the others to take notice and get in line? > [@](#): > > Exposure to her has probably caused damage in my perception of vegetarians in general, but this thread is helping that a lot. I’m glad. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/91 "2004-08-11T13:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Priceguy** said: > This makes no sense. Killing a bee horribly is much more difficult than killing it quickly. Why would the beekeeper take the time to kill them horribly? Is he expecting the others to take notice and get in line? I didn’t pay much attention to the rest of her argument, but this one was based on the idea that having the stinger ripped out of its ass into the beekeeper suit was cruel to the bee. I dunno, she’s one of the weirdies. Thanks for answering questions. ---
**Author:** ![Earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/92 "2004-08-11T14:00:50Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Also what do vegetarians here think of this premise that was brought up by my vegetarian/vegan extreme cousin: Honey production is morally wrong because it involves the enslavement of bees? I know you asked about vegetarians _here_, but I hope you don’t mind a quote from [Vegan Action](http://www.vegan.org/FAQs/#7): > [@](#): > > Many vegans…are not opposed to using insect products, because they do not believe insects are conscious of pain. Moreover, even if insects were conscious of pain, it’s not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables, since the harvesting and transportation of all vegetables involves many ‘collateral’ insect deaths. And later, > [@](#): > > The vegan lifestyle is an ongoing progression. Everyone should go at their own pace and remember that all steps towards veganism are positive…Some vegans will adjust their level of abstinence according to the circumstances. For example, as a consumer, you might make sure the bread you buy is not made with whey; but as a dinner guest, you may accept bread without asking to see the ingredients. Seems sensible enough to me. Extremists may regard this gradual and decorous approach as hypocritical, though. ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/93 "2004-08-11T14:43:35Z")
I’m not accusing anyone in particular here of this but many of the strict vegetarians in my life take whatever opportunities they can to point out their vegetarianism, make plain their moral ground for being so while simultaneously bragging about the glorious foodstuffs they enjoy. Because of this I have come to view vegetarianism as a form of gluttony- not in the traditional eat-everything-in-site sense but the sense in which C.S. Lewis describes the sin in his Screwtape Letters ([letter 17](http://www.math.ucla.edu/~brodsky/lewis.html) ). That is, being vegetarian is an excuse to be overly particular and priggish about what one eats. Not to overindulge in food but to overindulge in concern about food. Their alleged moral belief seems to be a mask to cover or justify their overweening approach to what they put in their mouths. Clearly not every vegetarian is like this- just the ones I happen to know. It is a singularly obnoxious sort of gluttony. As for the OP, a moral principle stands alone and does not need the ability to affect change to support it. I may disagree with the entire animal rights argument, but if one does believe in it than one should not eat meat even if your neighbor may never change his ways. Perhaps the implicit premise here is that the poster does not believe that vegetarians who claim morality is their motivation are not actually motivated by such, ergo “what is the point”. I have come to view that about of few of my acquaintances. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/94 "2004-08-11T15:07:59Z")
You must be joking. Have you _any_ idea how annoying it is to be a vegetarian? How much longer it takes to make food? How difficult it is to find choice in a restaurant? How irritating it is to deal with the majority (90%+ of people are omnivores), a significant proportion of whom find it necessary to cast judgements over your food choices? And you think they do this not for moral reasons but because… they want an “excuse to be overly particular and priggish about what one eats.”? Wow. This level of arrogance I don’t even know how to touch. Ah well. Judge away there, sparky. I hope it makes you happy. **catsix** – you see what vegetarians have to put up with? Imagine people listening to your moral views and then telling you that actually you don’t have those moral views at all and really its just an excuse to be priggish! Now tell me that isn’t even more irritating even than your extremist cousin. And remember that for each one of your cousin, there are nine of these guys… pan ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/95 "2004-08-11T15:58:20Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > And you think they do this not for moral reasons but because… they want an “excuse to be overly particular and priggish about what one eats.”? > > Wow. This level of arrogance I don’t even know how to touch. Ah well. Judge away there, sparky. I hope it makes you happy. Not joking. I rarely have conversations about food with my omnivore friends, but with my vegetarian friends it always seems to come down to food- what they eat, what they don’t eat (and why) and how good it is, how hard it is to find, etc. etc. It seems to be the focus of their existence. Taking a moral stand and sticking to it is one thing. Talking non-stop about it and food in general is another. One begins to wonder if the goal is adhering to a moral principle or if it is the appearance of moral and epicurial superiority. I don’t say that these two are mutually exlusive- all of our motivations can be very complex- but I do believe there is a counter-culture alure to the lifestyle and that for some the preaching is disingenuous. If I had accused you of this I would expect a bit of venom but I hadn’t so you can lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/96 "2004-08-11T16:16:08Z")
> [@jfortun](#): > > Not joking. I rarely have conversations about food with my omnivore friends, but with my vegetarian friends it always seems to come down to food- what they eat, what they don’t eat (and why) and how good it is, how hard it is to find, etc. etc. It seems to be the focus of their existence. Vegetarians get accused of this a lot. In my experience, however, it tends to be quite the reverse: it is the _non-vegetarians_ that bring the topic up. Along the lines of: (In a restaurant) NV: Why don’t you try this? V: Can’t, sorry, I’m a vegetarian. NV: A vegetarian! Why?! That’s just silly! Let me point out these helpful arguments as to why you shouldn’t bother. (Etc. ad infinitum). Most of the time, the non-vegetarian doesn’t even realise they have done it. They just remember after the event that the vegetarian was strangely defensive about being a vegetarian. Well no shit! > [@](#): > > If I had accused you of this I would expect a bit of venom but I hadn’t so you can lighten up. Hah! You accuse a whole section of people of gross deception – that their so-called morality is a sham and _actually_ it’s just an excuse to be priggish – and you think that _you_ are the one taking the high road! Oh sweet, sweet irony. pan ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/97 "2004-08-11T16:28:24Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > Vegetarians get accused of this a lot. In my experience, however, it tends to be quite the reverse: it is the _non-vegetarians_ that bring the topic up. Along the lines of: Then we have had different experiences. > [@](#): > > Hah! You accuse a whole section of people of gross deception – that their so-called morality is a sham and _actually_ it’s just an excuse to be priggish – and you think that _you_ are the one taking the high road! Oh sweet, sweet irony. I hadn’t accused a whole section of people of that. I stated 3 times in my original post that I did not believe this applied to every vegetarian. On this note however I stated that the motivations may be more complex than simply posing vs. moral belief. This is not the same as deception and I did not accuse vegetarians (in particular or en masse) of lying. Finally, I never indicated that I thought I was taking the moral high road; but since you opened the door- I do think that advocating animal rights is immoral- though that is a discussion for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/98 "2004-08-11T16:57:04Z")
> [@jfortun](#): > > Because of this I have come to view vegetarianism as a form of gluttony You are accusing a whole section of people. Even if you later modify it as “of course, not _all_ vegetarians are like this…” the implication is still that most are. That’s just obnoxious. And given your whole approach to this issue, I would not be at all surprised to find that _you_ are precisely the kind of person I was referring to in my fictitious conversation; you don’t even realise that _you_ are the one with the confrontational attitude that gets the vegetarians’ backs up in the first place and then just remembers how defensive _they_ were being. pan ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/99 "2004-08-11T17:03:08Z")
> [@jfortun](#): > > I do think that advocating animal rights is immoral- though that is a discussion for another thread. Start it. ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868/100 "2004-08-11T17:41:28Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > You are accusing a whole section of people. Even if you later modify it as “of course, not _all_ vegetarians are like this…” the implication is still that most are. That’s just obnoxious. You are free to interpret it any way you wish but it was not my intended implication. I can’t help but feel that I am not the one being obnoxious at this point. > [@](#): > > And given your whole approach to this issue, I would not be at all surprised to find that _you_ are precisely the kind of person I was referring to in my fictitious conversation; you don’t even realise that _you_ are the one with the confrontational attitude that gets the vegetarians’ backs up in the first place and then just remembers how defensive _they_ were being. > > pan I don’t know why you had to make this so personal. I am not one of those. I tend to be pretty sensitive to the dietary requirements of my friends when entertaining so I tend to avoid the confrontation alltogether. If dining out though I don’t hesitate to order a steak rare, so perhaps you consider that part of my “confrontational attitude.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-being-vegetarian/258868.md?page=6)