# What's the point of Kobayashi Maru (STAR TREK question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129 "2009-05-12T02:37:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/21 "2009-05-12T15:45:37Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > I didn’t get the impression that the test was widely known by the cadets to be unwinnable, just that no one had ever won it. In the movie (the current movie), when Spock accused Kirk of cheating by changing the program, Kirk accused Spock of cheating by making the program unwinnable – and, by inference, presenting it as winnable, or implying it was winnable, because otherwise that wouldn’t be a “cheat.” I agree. I think that in this case, letting the cadets know no one has ever won it could make it _more useful_, as it provides greater incentive for certain ego-driven individuals to try to be the first. Given that it may be difficult to hide the 0% success rate, why not turn it to your advantage? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/22 "2009-05-12T15:53:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I agree. I think that in this case, letting the cadets know no one has ever won it could make it _more useful_, as it provides greater incentive for certain ego-driven individuals to try to be the first. Given that it may be difficult to hide the 0% success rate, why not turn it to your advantage? Why would it be hard to hide the 0% success rate? I’d imagine cadets go through hundreds, if not thousands, of flight sims. Requiring a certain percentage of them to be “random” (and inserting the K-M into that “random” pool) would mask that. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/23 "2009-05-12T18:52:17Z")
Why would they go on flight sims? Most probably rely heavily on computers to pilot shuttles and, depending on education specialty, don’t have the specific know-how to operate the controls of the starship. Security officers, science officers, engineers, and so forth, probaly do not possess the skills required to do that. They divide navigation from actual piloting, and the captain often barks out directions to the pilot as well: he does not ovrride or enter them himself. (Amusing note about new movie.) Sulu, apparently a cadet about to graduate or who just had graduated, was so keyed up he forgot to “turn off the brakes” before engaging warp drive, leading to a pretty hilarious scene. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/24 "2009-05-12T19:03:16Z")
I never got the impression from The Wrath of Khan that Spock had designed the Kobayashi Maru. I know it was a part of the new movie’s plot. But in TWOK, it was never implied. In fact, Spock admitted to never having taken the test. I know that the Enterprise was a cadet training ship and that the cadets were under Captain Spock’s command, so he was in charge of administering the test to his cadets, but I had the impression that the Kobayashi Maru had originated before Kirk and Spock’s time in the Academy, and that Spock in TWOK’s era was one more in a long line of starship commanders in charge of running his cadets through the scenario rather than the one who had originated the test. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/25 "2009-05-12T19:08:47Z")
Spock creating the Kobayashi Maru scenario’s a completely new take on it. Before this, I don’t think I’d ever run into the idea in any form of fanon. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/26 "2009-05-12T19:21:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Why would they go on flight sims? Most probably rely heavily on computers to pilot shuttles and, depending on education specialty, don’t have the specific know-how to operate the controls of the starship. Security officers, science officers, engineers, and so forth, probaly do not possess the skills required to do that. They divide navigation from actual piloting, and the captain often barks out directions to the pilot as well: he does not ovrride or enter them himself. :rolleyes: Replace the word “flight” with “command”. It is unreasonable to suggest that cadets are not put through hundreds, if not thousands, of simulations someone aboard a starship would encounter. And based on TNG and Voyager, it seems that everyone aboard is quite familiar with the controls of the starship - controls that to the viewer appear to be quite manual and/or require a great deal of skill other than telling a computer what to do. Additionally, it seems based on those series that simulations are not uncommon either. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/27 "2009-05-12T20:05:03Z")
I think its more important to think of the point of it in terms of the writing - it serves to define the character of Captain James T. Kirk as a modern Alexander the Great. Consider the Kobayashi Maru in the light of the Gordian Knot. While Alexander’s solution may not have been the one Gordius had in mind, it has come to represent the ability to solve a problem that seems insoluble through unconventional means. Also, just because a solution has not yet been found doesn’t mean that the solution doesn’t exist. It is one thing for the cadets to talk about this thing that was on the test that no one has yet figured out - but it doesn’t mean that it is presented to them as insoluble. I’m put in mind of various mathematical problems, such as the inscription of a 17 sided figure using only straight edge and compass. [Gauss](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Heptadecagon.html) became the first to solve what had previously been thought beyond solution. Is it ever explicitly stated in the new movie or in The Wrath of Khan that the Kobayashi Maru exercise has no solution? I’m now thinking, too, of what is presented as an SAS initiation/training exercise in the first Rebus, _Knots and Crosses_. Details escape me, but the scenario in question involves convincing the recruit that he is about to be thrown from a helicopter… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/28 "2009-05-12T22:04:06Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > :rolleyes: Replace the word “flight” with “command”. It is unreasonable to suggest that cadets are not put through hundreds, if not thousands, of simulations someone aboard a starship would encounter. And based on TNG and Voyager, it seems that everyone aboard is quite familiar with the controls of the starship - controls that to the viewer appear to be quite manual and/or require a great deal of skill other than telling a computer what to do. Additionally, it seems based on those series that simulations are not uncommon either. The rolleyes is unneccessary and insulting, and you do not have the wit to back it up. Not every military (or heavily armed warships upon which we stick women and children) uses simulations commonly, and since we do not know what kinds of activities they do use, speculation that they obviously should seems misplaced and self-centered on your part. That you think it a good idea, and may be right, does not mean it is a neccessary aspect of their curriculum. > [@Le Ministre de l'au-delà](#): > > Is it ever explicitly stated in the new movie or in The Wrath of Khan that the Kobayashi Maru exercise has no solution? I cannot recall about ST2, but in the latest Spock was pretty clear that no actual solution was possible, but he did imply to the cadets that there was supposed to be one. He was (secretly) upset that Kirk actually cheated, but Kirk responded by noting that he simply cheated the cheat. The scenario was arbitrarily designed to force you to fail without acknowledging it openly (as do comparable tests in the U.S. military). And evidently Kirk had already gone through and performed acceptably twice before. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/29 "2009-05-12T22:11:03Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Is it ever explicitly stated in the new movie or in The Wrath of Khan that the Kobayashi Maru exercise has no solution? Yes. It is repeatedly referred to throughout the Trek verse as a “no-win scenario.” Kirk’s solution to it, as referred to in _Wrath of Khan_, required changing that. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/30 "2009-05-13T00:48:27Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I never got the impression from The Wrath of Khan that Spock had designed the Kobayashi Maru. I know it was a part of the new movie’s plot. But in TWOK, it was never implied. In fact, Spock admitted to never having taken the test. I know that the Enterprise was a cadet training ship and that the cadets were under Captain Spock’s command, so he was in charge of administering the test to his cadets, but I had the impression that the Kobayashi Maru had originated before Kirk and Spock’s time in the Academy, and that Spock in TWOK’s era was one more in a long line of starship commanders in charge of running his cadets through the scenario rather than the one who had originated the test. You’re right, of course. It was just an inference on my part with the information we got from the new movie. If Spock both designed and administered the test for 4 years, it would make sense for him to have designed it when he had to administer it again. (I’m assuming, of course, that the new timeline didn’t affect the authorship of the program, as it still has the same, vaguely Vulcan sounding name.) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/31 "2009-05-13T01:01:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > (I’m assuming, of course, that the new timeline didn’t affect the authorship of the program, as it still has the same, vaguely Vulcan sounding name.) “Kobayashi Maru” is Japanese, not Vulcan. [Kobayashi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi) is a common Japanese surname; [maru](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ship_naming_conventions) is a Japanese word commonly attached to the end of a ship’s name (generally used for merchant vessels, not warships). _Kobayashi Maru_ is thus roughly speaking the Japanese equivalent of “S.S. _Jones_”. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/32 "2009-05-13T12:38:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The rolleyes is unneccessary and insulting, and you do not have the wit to back it up. > > Not every military (or heavily armed warships upon which we stick women and children) uses simulations commonly, and since we do not know what kinds of activities they do use, speculation that they obviously should seems misplaced and self-centered on your part. That you think it a good idea, and may be right, does not mean it is a neccessary aspect of their curriculum. I think you missed the part where I said that simulations are seen being used extensively in the Star Trek universe, making your point moot. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/33 "2009-05-13T17:36:44Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I think you missed the part where I said that simulations are seen being used extensively in the Star Trek universe, making your point moot. No, I did not miss the fact that you said it. However, you failed to bring up any evidence to support this point, and in fact it is not at all clear that this is the case. At all. In fact, outside of The Next Generation (which the current movie would predate even in its own hilariously screwed-up continuity), they don’t seem to use simulations much at all. Certainly, the brief glimpses seen of the Academy in all the Star Treks do not support the contention that simulations are a huge part of the curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/34 "2009-05-13T17:59:25Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > In fact, outside of The Next Generation (which the current movie would predate even in its own hilariously screwed-up continuity), they don’t seem to use simulations much at all. So you’re admitting that simulations ARE used? The current movie continuity is a non-starter, as it shows the origination of the K-M, so hiding its 0% success rate is unnecessary due to people’s unfamiliarity with it. > [@](#): > > Certainly, the brief glimpses seen of the Academy in all the Star Treks do not support the contention that simulations are a huge part of the curriculum. The brief glimpses of the Academy do, however, support the contention that manual control during flight is [extremely common](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_First_Duty_(episode)). If you want to maintain that all flight instruction is done in cockpit and not in simulation, that’s fine - but pretty unreasonable, IMO - especially with something as realistic as the holodeck available. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/35 "2009-05-13T19:04:45Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So you’re admitting that simulations ARE used? The current movie continuity is a non-starter, as it shows the origination of the K-M, so hiding its 0% success rate is unnecessary due to people’s unfamiliarity with it. Everything I have mentioned is relevant to the new continuity. We have never seen one used in the academy, however, in any continuity. Being that it is an entirely fictional world, I can think of reasons and scenarios you could be correct and reason you might not be. Assuming the situation because it makes your argument is extremely presumptive and bad logic. At the moment, you are artguing their actions are stupid because of an assumption you’ve made contrary to any evidence. > [@](#): > > The brief glimpses of the Academy do, however, support the contention that manual control during flight is [extremely common](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_First_Duty_(episode)). If you want to maintain that all flight instruction is done in cockpit and not in simulation, that’s fine - but pretty unreasonable, IMO - especially with something as realistic as the holodeck available. They don’t have the holodeck available in the new movie, to the extent that we know. Nor did they have it avilable during TOS. The holodeck does make simulations much easier, but it specifically did not exist during TOS, nor the new movie. Secondly, in space, it’s much safer to teach someone how to pilot. Unlike normal flight school, you do not have the highly dangerous ground and gravity to worry about. They may use lots of simulations, or not, or perhaps only some branches use simulations. Kirk, for instance, was never clearly presented as having learned how to pilot a starship. Likewise, if learning how to pilot a shuttle was difficult, they _probably_ wouldn’t have officers learn. For example, Admirals of the Navy do not neccessarily know how to pilot their own craft, much less small ships. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/36 "2009-05-13T19:37:22Z")
smiling bandit, I believe you’re taking my comments far too literally. My original assertion was that it would not be difficult to mask the K-M’s 0% success rate, and I apparently used poor wording (“flight simulation”, then “command simulation”) as an example. I merely maintain that Starfleet (or ANY military academy) will utilize tactical simulations to prepare cadets for various situations they may encounter. Through my extensive research of military documentaries (such as “Stripes”, “Hamburger Hill”, Pauly Shore’s “In the Army Now” and the definitive “Earnest Goes to Camp” - not to mention Police Academies 1 through 7), tactical training is an essential component to a cadet’s training (especially if he wants to win over the buxom instructor who’s hesitant to violate the student-teacher relationship). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/37 "2009-05-14T00:54:41Z")
You know what is also unwinnable? A debate about a hypothetical test from a make-believe movie. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/38 "2009-05-14T01:21:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You know what is also unwinnable? A debate about a hypothetical test from a make-believe movie. Congratulations **msmith537** , you are now fit for command. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/39 "2009-05-14T04:56:00Z")
Now get down onto that alien planet! ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129/40 "2009-05-14T05:14:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You know what is also unwinnable? A debate about a hypothetical test from a make-believe movie. Ah, but what if I… change the _parameters_… to instill… _fear_.. in my _enemies_… My… _repu… tation_… will _serve_ me well… \* Withdraw\* or… be _destroyed_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-kobayashi-maru-star-trek-question/496129.md?page=3)