# What's the point of Materialism?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 8, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898 "2010-11-08T13:25:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/1 "2010-11-08T13:25:05Z")
I am a skeptic. I try not to have _beliefs_, merely _confidence_ in particular theories based on their ability to make accurate predictions.
Generally skeptics like me would also describe themselves as materialists, among other things. But I’m reluctant to do so for two reasons:
1. To declare that the only thing that exists is matter is not really the skeptical position ISTM. A more skeptical position is just “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than matter exists”. WRT consciousness “We have no reason to suppose any non-material component”.
2. What is matter anyway? What we call matter is considerably stretched from when materialism was first formalised. And when dealing in mathematical abstractions it can be very problematic: are virtual particles “matter”?
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/2 "2010-11-08T14:16:11Z")
What’s the point? I think most people who think they’re materialists would identify with your description in your #1, with the possible exception of widening the definition of “matter.” The material world includes not just particles, but states of matter like energy or velocity.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/3 "2010-11-08T14:46:41Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> 1. To declare that the only thing that exists is matter is not really the skeptical position ISTM. A more skeptical position is just “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than matter exists”. WRT consciousness “We have no reason to suppose any non-material component”.
That’s a definition of “skepticism” that exists to pretend that belief in religion and other forms of woo are less silly than they are. People don’t say “I have no reason to think that Sauron is anything but fictional” or “I have no reason to think a purple invisible elf is on my shoulder”; they say Sauron isn’t real and that there is no elf. It’s only when it comes to popular beliefs that people want to make excuses for that suddenly all this handwaving comes into play.
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/4 "2010-11-08T15:05:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> 1. To declare that the only thing that exists is matter is not really the skeptical position ISTM. A more skeptical position is just “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than matter exists”. WRT consciousness “We have no reason to suppose any non-material component”.
The two positions are exactly equivalent. And false, for some definitions of “matter”. I’m not even sure which of the two positions you find more acceptable or why.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/5 "2010-11-08T15:28:00Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> That’s a definition of “skepticism” that exists to pretend that belief in religion and other forms of woo are less silly than they are. People don’t say “I have no reason to think that Sauron is anything but fictional” or “I have no reason to think a purple invisible elf is on my shoulder”; they say Sauron isn’t real and that there is no elf. It’s only when it comes to popular beliefs that people want to make excuses for that suddenly all this handwaving comes into play.
I agree with the sentiment, but personally the idea of saying “we have no reason to suppose Sauron is anything but fictional” sits fine with me. In everyday parlance I’d say that “Sauron isn’t real” but I’d see that as mere shorthand for my real position.
But maybe that’s the point – we don’t need AntiSauronists because there aren’t people out there actually saying sauron is real. But having people declare themselves to be materialists is significant, because for so long the assumption of many has been the existence of gods and other “supernatural” entities.
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> The two positions are exactly equivalent. And false, for some definitions of “matter”. I’m not even sure which of the two positions you find more acceptable or why.
Which two positions?
“The only thing that exists is matter” and “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than matter exists” are not exactly equivalent.
Say I walk into a dark room and trip over a table.
I can say “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than this table (and me) is in this room”. But I shouldn’t say “The only thing in this room is a table (and me)”, because I don’t know that.
(This analogy is a little shaky because there is prior knowledge; that we know that rooms with a table usually contain other furniture, but you get the point)
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### Author:  [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/6 "2010-11-08T17:30:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> Say I walk into a dark room and trip over a table.
> I can say “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than this table (and me) is in this room”. But I shouldn’t say “The only thing in this room is a table (and me)”, because I don’t know that.
>
> (This analogy is a little shaky because there is prior knowledge; that we know that rooms with a table usually contain other furniture, but you get the point)
To me the difference is that “The only thing in this room is a table (and me)” is falsifiable.
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### Author:  [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/7 "2010-11-08T17:36:22Z")
> [@CurtC](#):
>
> I think most people who think they’re materialists would identify with your description in your #1, with the possible exception of widening the definition of “matter.” The material world includes not just particles, but states of matter like energy or velocity.
I’ve heard the word **physicalism** used for this meaning — to encompass everything that is _physical_, beyond just matter.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/8 "2010-11-08T17:52:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> That’s a definition of “skepticism” that exists to pretend that belief in religion and other forms of woo are less silly than they are. People don’t say “I have no reason to think that Sauron is anything but fictional” or “I have no reason to think a purple invisible elf is on my shoulder”; they say Sauron isn’t real and that there is no elf. It’s only when it comes to popular beliefs that people want to make excuses for that suddenly all this handwaving comes into play.
The OP was talking about generalities; you’re talking about specifics.
It’s one thing to say “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ isn’t real.” It’s a different sort of thing to say “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is the **only** thing that’s real.”
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/9 "2010-11-08T18:37:51Z")
> [@74westy](#):
>
> To me the difference is that “The only thing in this room is a table (and me)” is falsifiable.
Depends on the size of the room.
The Universe is a very big room.
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### Author:  [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/10 "2010-11-08T19:05:02Z")
Materialism is a spiritually empty philosophy which denies the experience of connectedness with a larger reality with other individuals or the human community;
One spiritual connectedness has been succinctly put as follows:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "
Materialism has no point as it is merely a point, an entity that has a location in space, but has no extent. Indelible experiences, not transitory material, gives the only real substance to human life.
Abandon your skepticism…
You are greater than the sum of your individual material parts
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/11 "2010-11-08T19:12:47Z")
> [@focusonz](#):
>
> Materialism is a spiritually empty philosophy which denies the experience of connectedness with a larger reality with other individuals or the human community;
This _may_ be true
> [@](#):
>
> One spiritual connectedness has been succinctly put as follows:
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "
This is only spiritual if you take the Creator to be a spiritual entity. In any case it says nothing about “connectedness”.
> [@](#):
>
> Materialism has no point as it is merely a point, an entity that has a location in space, but has no extent. Indelible experiences, not transitory material, gives the only real substance to human life.
Please give the coordinates in space where materialism resides.
> [@](#):
>
> Abandon your skepticism…
> You are greater than the sum of your individual material parts
And a river is more than the molecules of water that are contained in it. You’re not saying anything profound.
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/12 "2010-11-08T19:21:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> Which two positions?
The ones that I quoted. I may have mis-read your OP.
> [@](#):
>
> “The only thing that exists is matter” and “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than matter exists” are not exactly equivalent.
True, but if there is no evidence to suppose anything more than the typical objects in physics exists, while we’ve been seriously looking for ages, then position one follows from position two.
> [@](#):
>
> Say I walk into a dark room and trip over a table.
> I can say “There’s no reason to suppose anything other than this table (and me) is in this room”. But I shouldn’t say “The only thing in this room is a table (and me)”, because I don’t know that.
But if you just walk around a bit more, wave your arms around, and still only detect a table and the walls, you would be completely justified in believing that the room contains just you, the table and air.
Oh yeah, with regards to beliefs:
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> I am a skeptic. I try not to have _beliefs_, merely _confidence_ in particular theories based on their ability to make accurate predictions.
All assertions of confidence are statements of belief, just like all other assertions about the universe are statements of belief. The truth or falsity of those beliefs does not make them any less a belief.
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/13 "2010-11-08T19:25:11Z")
> [@focusonz](#):
>
> Materialism has no point as it is merely a point, an entity that has a location in space, but has no extent. Indelible experiences, not transitory material, gives the only real substance to human life.
>
> Abandon your skepticism…
> You are greater than the sum of your individual material parts
Nobody said that the idea of materialism is all you may want in your life. Materialism has a very narrow focus: that what we see and can detect is probably all that exists. It does not address how you choose to live your life, what you value, your relationships. That’s something else.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/14 "2010-11-08T19:45:55Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> if you just walk around a bit more, wave your arms around, and still only detect a table and the walls, you would be completely justified in believing that the room contains just you, the table and air.
You would be justified in _assuming_. But until you have literally explored every Planck volume (or whatever minimum size of object we’re interested in) of the room, there could always be other objects.
> [@](#):
>
> All assertions of confidence are statements of belief, just like all other assertions about the universe are statements of belief. The truth or falsity of those beliefs does not make them any less a belief.
I see where you’re coming from, but to me _belief_ is a poisoned term. Young-Earth Creationists will accuse mainstream geologists of having _beliefs_ in “millions of years”.
The key difference is that YECs start with a cherished belief, and then try to interpret facts to fit. Mainstream geologists OTOH, have confidence in models that explain the data and make verified predictions. They would change their “beliefs” tomorrow if a new theory came along that better explained the data and made more accurate, verified predictions.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/15 "2010-11-08T19:52:17Z")
“Materialism” is a word I mainly see used by woosters to try to make it sound like basic common sense is a belief system. For me it’s pretty simple, I assume that nothing exists until its proven to exist, and I assume that the impossible is impossible until proven otherwise. I don’t know why that’s so offensive to some people.
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### Author:  [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/16 "2010-11-08T19:56:32Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> This _may_ be true.
Acceptance as truth is a growing openness to experience.
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> This is only spiritual if you take the Creator to be a spiritual entity. In any case it says nothing about “connectedness”.
The “We” is the spiritual “connectedness”, but it requires an increasingly existential lifestyle to experience it.
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> Please give the coordinates in space where materialism resides.
It is the point marking “What you are))” as you proceed to experience “((what you could be))”.
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> And a river is more than the molecules of water that are contained in it.
It is profound to realize that man has “free choice” and the river does not.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/17 "2010-11-08T20:14:18Z")
Cite that people have “free choice?”
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/18 "2010-11-08T20:31:15Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> You would be justified in _assuming_. But until you have literally explored every Planck volume (or whatever minimum size of object we’re interested in) of the room, there could always be other objects.
Then why would it matter that the room is dark? We’re talking about “ordinary objects” here. If I say a room is “empty” in any normal conversation, I’m not saying it’s an absolute vacuum.
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> I see where you’re coming from, but to me _belief_ is a poisoned term. Young-Earth Creationists will accuse mainstream geologists of having _beliefs_ in “millions of years”.
>
> The key difference is that YECs start with a cherished belief, and then try to interpret facts to fit. Mainstream geologists OTOH, have confidence in models that explain the data and make verified predictions. They would change their “beliefs” tomorrow if a new theory came along that better explained the data and made more accurate, verified predictions.
I kind of agree, but I don’t know of any word that describes what is actually happening better than “belief” - a belief is a statement about the world that the “believer” accepts as (probably) correct. YECs will also say they’ve got complete confidence that YEC is true, so using other words just won’t help make the distinction anyway - this also nicely brings into focus that statements of belief may be false, and not just about the object of that belief (in other words, the belief is incorrect wrt reality), but also may be incorrect about the belief itself (IOW, what is stated may not be what the speaker actually believes).
> [@focusonz](#):
>
> Acceptance as truth is a growing openness to experience.
What?
> [@](#):
>
> The “We” is the spiritual “connectedness”, but it requires an increasingly existential lifestyle to experience it.
Oh, I see. So if I wave to my neighbor, that’s a spiritual connection. If you want to diminish the term, go ahead.
> [@](#):
>
> It is the point marking “What you are))” as you proceed to experience “((what you could be))”.
You were the one claiming materialism is a point in a particular location _in space_. I asked for a location _in space_. I fail to see how this sentence provides an answer.
> [@](#):
>
> It is profound to realize that man has “free choice” and the river does not.
I’m not convinced man has “free choice” (which sounds awfully like the also unproven “free will”) in an absolute sense. Do goldfish have “free choice”?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/19 "2010-11-08T20:34:17Z")
Free will is purely a religious belief, and not a very coherent one at that. It’s a logical impossibility.
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### Author:  [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-point-of-materialism/559898/20 "2010-11-08T20:36:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Cite that people have “free choice?”
An unbiased observer would conclude that Diogenes the Cynic freely chose to cynically reply to the above with the caveat that Diogenes the Cynic is a person.
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