# Whats the possibility of me living to see a Muslim dominated Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/1 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")
I’m 18 now, and was wondering at the present rate of declining births and rising immigration from Muslim countries, how long would it take for them to become the majority faith and culture in Europe? There are 13 million living in Europe and immigration to various states makes that increase every year by a few million. If it ever happens, I’ll take up arms. Because I don’t want to my culture I’ve lived in all my life be uprooted and marginalised. Now I know, I’ll probably get alot of slack for saying that, but there’s a point where everyone wants no one to cross and thats it. Besides, I have valid points if I did take extreme action on the basis of them being more intolerant than my society and people are on a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/2 "2004-08-21T22:15:31Z")
Their and other religions will become obsolete before that happens. (I suspect) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/3 "2004-08-21T22:16:53Z")
I beg to differ. A good analogy of Islam is a rock in a river with water all around it, unmoveable unchanging and never compromising. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/4 "2004-08-21T22:20:06Z")
Even working with the figure I can remember off hand, the population of the EU (450m), Muslims make up less than 3%. And even if your figure for growth in Muslim population of “a few million” a year (I’ll work with 3m) is anywhere near correct (have you a cite?), that’s 70 years to reach 50% of the population. Disregarding population growth of the non-Muslim sector. So if you live a health life, and if your figures are right, and if that immigration continues for most of a century, then yes you might see a Muslim dominated Europe. Take up arms? Against who? Against random mosque-goers? Against Muslim politicians (who by then would surely be found in large numbers)? Why do you think you would be ‘uprooted and marginalised’, anyway? Church-going Christians are a small minority nowadays: are they uprooted or marginalised? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/5 "2004-08-21T22:21:13Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > A good analogy of Islam is a rock in a river with water all around it, unmoveable unchanging and never compromising. And how is that different to Catholicism? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/6 "2004-08-21T22:21:52Z")
Well my secular lifestyle. [http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796](http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796) there’s the article. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/7 "2004-08-21T22:23:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > And how is that different to Catholicism? Because there is seperation of Church and state, in Islam you can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/8 "2004-08-21T22:25:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I beg to differ. > > A good analogy of Islam is a rock in a river with water all around it, unmoveable unchanging and never compromising. But society, or large groups of humans, or civilization, whatever, gets more and more Liberal as time passes. Technology helps this. I believe Muslim societies will get too liberal and religion too distant in people’s minds for their religious govornments to keep going. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/9 "2004-08-21T22:26:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > [http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796](http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796) A gobsmackingly-ignorant piece of writing. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/10 "2004-08-21T22:27:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because there is seperation of Church and state, in Islam you can’t do that. You can’t? Then how does such a separation manage to exist in many Mulsim-dominated countries? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/11 "2004-08-21T22:29:45Z")
> [@](#): > > But society, or large groups of humans, or civilization, whatever, gets more and more Liberal as time passes. Technology helps this. I believe Muslim societies will get too liberal and religion too distant in people’s minds for their religious govornments to keep going. Yeah, but you know I’m not going to live for centuries for that to change, I would like to live in a society which doesn’t bar me from taking certain positions in government and society, or I get taxed for being a different religion. Muslims get pissed when we invade their countries and try to change their habits, maybe I want to complain about their intolerant practices and beliefs. I don’t see why I have to apologise and be all PC about them and they can say whatever they want about me and my culture, society and people. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/12 "2004-08-21T22:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > You can’t? Then how does such a separation manage to exist in many Mulsim-dominated countries? Control and cultural habits, but many don’t sway completely from the book. Most of the laws are derivative from the Qu’ran. I know the we’ve had laws from the Bible too, but I’m talking about a culture that is 150-300 years behind us, which takes them more at face value. Our laws and practices are flexible because most of the interpretation has not been taken so literally anymore. And this is what I worry about, I worry about a more god fearing preaching culture taking over my society within a few decades/century. I don’t want to see a reversal of what we’ve worked so hard to gain. I might be paranoid, or delusional, but this is something that does worry me, I mean, what are my future generations going to face if we didn’t do something about it? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/13 "2004-08-21T22:34:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I would like to live in a society which doesn’t bar me from taking certain positions in government and society, or I get taxed for being a different religion. Nothing of what you describe is commonplace in Muslim-dominated countries. You’re using the exceptions as your examples. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/14 "2004-08-21T22:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Nothing of what you describe is commonplace in Muslim-dominated countries. You’re using the exceptions as your examples. So what if it isn’t? Would you still say these sort of governments are what we should look upto or even condone? Would you like a theocratic government? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/15 "2004-08-21T22:37:11Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Most of the laws are derivative from the Qu’ran. I know the we’ve had laws from the Bible too, but I’m talking about a culture that is 150-300 years behind us, which takes them more at face value. Our laws and practices are flexible because most of the interpretation has not been taken so literally anymore. And this is what I worry about, I worry about a more god fearing preaching culture taking over my society within a few decades/century. I don’t want to see a reversal of what we’ve worked so hard to gain. I might be paranoid, or delusional, but this is something that does worry me, I mean, what are my future generations going to face if we didn’t do something about it? Do you have the slightest clue what you’re talking about? Many Muslim countries have legal systems directly inherited from British colonial rule. As for not using the bible as a basis for creating laws, it’s wishful thinking that such habits have dies out. And you still haven’t explained why a growth in a Muslim population means they’ll take over “your” society. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/16 "2004-08-21T22:39:11Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So what if it isn’t? Would you still say these sort of governments are what we should look upto or even condone? Would you like a theocratic government? That’s like saying “Robert Mugabe is a Christian, and he’s an evil dictator, therefore Christians in government are inherently dangerous” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/17 "2004-08-21T23:08:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, but you know I’m not going to live for centuries for that to change, I would like to live in a society which doesn’t bar me from taking certain positions in government and society, or I get taxed for being a different religion. You live in England . . . do you really believe you will live long enough to see Muslims become a majority in your country? Such a predominant majority that they will be able to push through censorship of non-Islamic views and taxations of non-Muslims? No, you will not live that long. ---
**Author:** ![MrManfrengenfrensen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MrManfrengenfrensen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrManfrengenfrensen)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/18 "2004-08-21T23:44:40Z")
[Constitution of Mali](http://confinder.richmond.edu/Mali.html) > [@](#): > > Article 2: All Malians are born and live free and equal in their rights and duties. Any discrimination based on social origin, color, language, race, sex, religion, or political opinion is prohibited. and > [@](#): > > Article 4: Every person has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, worship, opinion, expression, and creation in respect to the law. [Constitution of Malaysia](http://confinder.richmond.edu/local_malaysia.html) > [@](#): > > 1. Islam is the religion of the Federation; but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation. > [@](#): > > Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it. > (2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own. > (3) Every religious group has the right - > > (a) to manage its own religious affairs; > > (b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and > > © to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law. [Constitution of Indonesia](http://menic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/indonesia/ConstIndonesia.html) > [@](#): > > Chapter XI. Religion > > Article 29 > > 1. The State shall be based upon Belief in the One, Supreme God. > > 2. The State shall guarantee freedom to every resident to adhere to his respective religion and to perform his religious duties in conformity with that religion and that faith. [Constitution of Jordan](http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/constitution_jo.html) > [@](#): > > (i) Jordanians shall be equal before the law. There shall be no discrimination between them as regards to their rights and duties on grounds of race, language or religion. > (ii) The Government shall ensure work and education within the limits of its possibilities, and it shall ensure a state of tranquillity and equal opportunities to all Jordanians. [Constitution of Albania](http://www.parlament.al/english/dis-kus.html) > [@](#): > > Article 18 > > 1. All are equal before the law. > > 2. No one may be unjustly discriminated against for reasons such as gender, race, religion, ethnicity, language, political, religious or philosophical beliefs, economic condition, education, social status, or ancestry. > > 3. No one may be discriminated against for reasons mentioned in paragraph 2 if reasonable and objective legal grounds do not exist. [Constitution of Turkey](http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupc/ca/cag/I142.htm) > [@](#): > > The recognition that no protection shall be afforded to thoughts or opinions contrary to Turkish national interests, the principle of the indivisibility of the existence of Turkey with its State and territory, Turkish historical and moral values or the nationalism, principles, reforms and modernism of Atatürk and that, as required by the principle of secularism, there shall be no interference whatsoever of the sacred religious feelings in State affairs and politics; ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/19 "2004-08-21T23:50:36Z")
> [@MrManfrengenfrensen](#): > > [Constitution of Mali](http://confinder.richmond.edu/Mali.html) > > and > > [Constitution of Malaysia](http://confinder.richmond.edu/local_malaysia.html) > > [Constitution of Indonesia](http://menic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/indonesia/ConstIndonesia.html) > > [Constitution of Jordan](http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/constitution_jo.html) > > [Constitution of Albania](http://www.parlament.al/english/dis-kus.html) > > [Constitution of Turkey](http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupc/ca/cag/I142.htm) And, to what degree do these nations live up to these goals? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/20 "2004-08-21T23:56:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m 18 now, and was wondering at the present rate of declining births and rising immigration from Muslim countries, how long would it take for them to become the majority faith and culture in Europe? Amongst long-time immigrants, the birthrate drops, and so does religious practice. Even in muslim countries, the birthrates are dropping. You’ll never see that. > [@](#): > > There are 13 million living in Europe and immigration to various states makes that increase every year by a few million. Cite for these millions of muslims coming every year? > [@](#): > > If it ever happens, I’ll take up arms. Because I don’t want to my culture I’ve lived in all my life be uprooted and marginalised. Now I know, I’ll probably get alot of slack for saying that, but there’s a point where everyone wants no one to cross and thats it. Besides, I have valid points if I did take extreme action on the basis of them being more intolerant than my society and people are on a whole. Go out and make friends with muslims your age. Ask them if they’ve some clues for sale. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=2)