# Whats the possibility of me living to see a Muslim dominated Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/21 "2004-08-22T00:00:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Now I know, I’ll probably get alot of slack for saying that, but there’s a point where everyone wants no one to cross and thats it. You mean “flack” not “slack”. Slack is the last thing you’re going to get around here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/22 "2004-08-22T00:01:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m 18 now, and was wondering at the present rate of declining births and rising immigration from Muslim countries, how long would it take for them to become the majority faith and culture in Europe? > > There are 13 million living in Europe and immigration to various states makes that increase every year by a few million. > > If it ever happens, I’ll take up arms. You still haven’t answered **GorillaMan’s** question, **Ryan.** Against whom would you “take up arms”? And for what political purpose? Driving the Muslims out of Europe? Even those who were born there? All 13+ million of them? Have you thought seriously about what that would entail? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/23 "2004-08-22T00:03:42Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > And, to what degree do these nations live up to these goals? :dubious: How do we measure that? A brief glance through the [Amnesty International library](http://web.amnesty.org/library/engindex) shows that the main problems with freedom and persecution in these countries have little or nothing to do with Islam or with conflicts between religions. They’re politically-motivated, or to do with ethnic conflicts that long predate Mohammed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/24 "2004-08-22T00:05:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Now I know, I’ll probably get alot of slack for saying that . . . 😕 How do you use the word “slack” in England? Where I come from it means something different. Something very different! 😃 [www.subgenius.com](http://www.subgenius.com) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/25 "2004-08-22T00:06:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because I don’t want to my culture I’ve lived in all my life be uprooted and marginalised. Well, you could also move to an area where you won’t be marginalized. Self-segregation works for some, but only in the short-term. Or, you can adapt. Being a member of a minority group isn’t the end of the world, nor is it gauranteed that you will be oppressed and marginalized. ---
**Author:** ![MrManfrengenfrensen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MrManfrengenfrensen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrManfrengenfrensen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/26 "2004-08-22T00:07:30Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > And, to what degree do these nations live up to these goals? :dubious: Differing levels. Turkey is most definitely secular, but they opress people on ethnic or political grounds. Mali is secular, however, they’ve relatively recently emerged from dictatorship and there’s been problems with opposition parties gaining equal access to the ballot, so I’m taking a wait and see attitude. Malaysia, I think has the best track record, except for a period during the nineties when the government failed to actively quell Muslim unrest. Indonesia is largely secular, but a pretty shaky democracy owing to the corruption of the Suharto family and a fitful economy. Jordan, AFAIK, has had a good track record for the past ten years or so. I haven’t done as much study of Albania, so I’m hesitant to put out my viewpoint on that country, given the general ethnic unrest that’s gone around that part of Europe in the last decade. So, to answer your question, these countries have a lot of problems, but they mostly stem from economic, ethnic, or political issues rather than religion. Of course, we should be wary, since those conditions tend to breed fundamentalists of all stripes, and it’s possible that in some of these countries if economic and political conditions don’t improve substantially, we might witness some sort of governmental shift away from secularism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/27 "2004-08-22T00:14:20Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So what if it isn’t? Would you still say these sort of governments are what we should look upto or even condone? Would you like a theocratic government? I know I wouldn’t. Of course, being an American, I’m far more worried about living under a fundamentalist Christian theocracy than I am about living under a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. I mean, after all, I already live in a country who’s leader is a member of the particular sect I feel threatens my “culture,” and for all practical purposes, it is impossible for anyone who is not an avowed member of said sect to be elected President. Despite that, it’s not something I lose a lot of sleep over. Why? Because I have faith (for lack of a better term) in the strength and rectitude of the culture in which I was born and raised. People aren’t all that different: mostly they want to be safe, prosperous, and happy. Secular democracies like we have in the West are, on average, able to provide these things to more people and in greater quantity than any other political system yet devised by man. Muslims immigrants, not being stupid, are going to realize this sooner or later, and will eventually embrace the culture and the attendant ethics of their home country. If not in the first generation, than almost certainly by the second. They’ll still be Muslims, of course, but aside from the manner in which they worship, they’ll be no different than British Anglicans, Jews, Catholics, or any other religious group that already calls those islands home. The only way I can see this _not_ happening is if they are somehow enjoined from sharing in the safety, prosperity, and potential happiness of their adopted countries. If they are cut out of the society in which they live, they will have no way of recognizing its value. If this happens for a long enough span of time, that disenfranchisement will eventually lead to anger, violence, revolt, and race war. It’s a tarbaby: the more you struggle to protect your “native” culture, the more likely you make it that said culture will be destroyed. But if you relax and trust that the culture you love can only be improved by mixing with other cultures, you’re going to find out that British culture doesn’t have a patch on _human_ culture. Besides which, if anything is going to take out British culture, it’s not going to come out of India or Pakistan. It’s going to come out of the USA. We’re the Original Gangsters of viral culture: nobody even thinks to try to keep us out until it’s too late, and by then you’ve already got McDonalds on every corner, _Friends_ on every channel, and a defective clone of our president living on Downing Street. Sure, go ahead. Take up arms to “protect” your culture. For every kebab stand you burn down, two KFCs will rise to take its place. Resistance is futile. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/28 "2004-08-22T00:16:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Well, you could also move to an area where you won’t be marginalized. Self-segregation works for some, but only in the short-term. It’s already failed in several parts of Manchester ( **Ryan\_Liam** ’s location), resulting in race riots partly stoked up by far-right racist groups. > [@](#): > > Or, you can adapt. Being a member of a minority group isn’t the end of the world, nor is it gauranteed that you will be oppressed and marginalized. Precisely. I’ve lived in some run-down but highly mixed areas of Manchester (Rusholme and Moss Side), where people live alongside one another fine. The only problems we had were white kids causing trouble roaming the streets drunk and high on coke. Never saw a Muslim kid doing that. Found myself short of cash twice in shops, both times Bengali-run, both times they just said ‘bring it in next time’. Both times I did. No way the local white newsagent would have said that. ---
**Author:** ![MrManfrengenfrensen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MrManfrengenfrensen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrManfrengenfrensen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/29 "2004-08-22T00:19:19Z")
BTW, personally, I don’t really care for Islam as a religion (I don’t care for Christianity either), and so it’s not my intent to defend it’s core tenets in any fashion. I’m just pointing out that it is possible to have secular Muslims, and rather than hysterically shrieking about how Islam is some bad monolithic force trying to seize the world, we should be concentrating on the conditions that give rise to radicalized Islamic movements (and all other radicalized religious movements as well). I’ve said what I came to say, so I’ll probably bow out of this thread (I’ve got law school reading to do), although I think this thread is very similar to another thread about Churchill and Islam, so I’ve come to the conclusion that the OP is simply interested in witnessing, rather than debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/30 "2004-08-22T01:16:50Z")
[QUOTE] Precisely. I’ve lived in some run-down but highly mixed areas of Manchester (Rusholme and Moss Side), where people live alongside one another fine. The only problems we had were white kids causing trouble roaming the streets drunk and high on coke. Never saw a Muslim kid doing that. [QUOTE] You’ve not been to Manchester in a long time they might not do drugs, but they are more inclined for committing crimes like robbery. Well, my argument wasn’t about any particular government or nation taking over, just that over time, Muslims who come from societies and cultures which are more rigid and oppressive would gradually become a majority or a large minority here in which they would interfere and influence laws and democratic practices of the country and countries in Europe. Like inner city ghettos and voluntary segregation. Ok, I do thank some of you for reassuring you about things like their declining birthrate and their eventual liberalization, but one point did make me think… > [@](#): > > Or, you can adapt. Being a member of a minority group isn’t the end of the world, nor is it gauranteed that you will be oppressed and marginalized. It maybe not the end of the world, but the fact that I could be a minority in my own country doesn’t make much sense to me, and its something which I should stand against. I believe that everyone is entitled to a state with their own community in which they feel comfortable living in, come on, are you honestly saying that if you saw your home being completely different and totally opposite to which you’ve been brought up in you wouldn’t feel any different? I know I would. > [@](#): > > so I’ve come to the conclusion that the OP is simply interested in witnessing, rather than debate. Yes I am, but am just curious for alot of peoples differing opinions before I come in a put my point across again. The only fears I have is that some Muslims aren’t intergrating enough and this can be detremental to everyone living here and in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/31 "2004-08-22T01:31:02Z")
Can you provide stats that show Muslim kids in Manchester are predisposed to robbery? (Particularly given the racist and generally inept police force). Certainly the three times I was robbed were all by white kids. > [@](#): > > but the fact that I could be a minority in my own country doesn’t make much sense to me, and its something which I should stand against. ‘Your’ country? Who gave it to you? If they’re living here, as citizens or as permanent residents, is it not their country also? It appears to me that the problem of Muslims not integrating is easily outweighed by non-Muslims relying on fears, prejudices and wild assumptions in their assessment of Muslim populations. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/32 "2004-08-22T02:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘Your’ country? Who gave it to you? If they’re living here, as citizens or as permanent residents, is it not their country also? No one gave it to me, but I would like my customs and practises which have been here since Britain was created to remain in place forever. Cannot one take pride in what his nation is and what it stands for? besides it’s not ‘my’ country it yours too. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/33 "2004-08-22T02:05:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > …customs and practises which have been here since Britain was created Such as…burning witches? Expelling Jews? Crusading? General religious persecution of whoever doesn’t agree with the ruling elite of the moment? > [@](#): > > besides it’s not ‘my’ country it yours too. Nice piece of arrogance there, passing your burden onto me. I never claimed it was ‘my’ country. And I’m still waiting for the cites I’ve asked you to produce. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/34 "2004-08-22T02:15:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It maybe not the end of the world, but the fact that I could be a minority in my own country doesn’t make much sense to me, and its something which I should stand against. Boo-freakin’-hoo. Countries change. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/35 "2004-08-22T02:16:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It maybe not the end of the world, but the fact that I could be a minority in my own country doesn’t make much sense to me, and its something which I should stand against. Why, and more importantly, how? > [@](#): > > I believe that everyone is entitled to a state with their own community in which they feel comfortable living in… How does that work, then? Who gets Palestine? What about Kashmir? I live in California. Does that mean I have to give my house back to a Mexican? Does he then have to give it up to a Miwok Indian? And where do I go? I’ve got some British blood in me, can I move in with you? Personally, I think a far more important right is the right of every human, regardless of where they were born, to seek out a better life for themselves. If that means immigrating to the UK, or the US, so be it. It’s not my place to tell him no, not when I’d be doing exactly the same thing if I were in his shoes. > [@](#): > > …come on, are you honestly saying that if you saw your home being completely different and totally opposite to which you’ve been brought up in you wouldn’t feel any different? I know I would. “Different” is not synonymous with “worse.” Maybe the influx of Islamic cultures will make the UK a better place to live. It’s certainly done wonders for your cuisine, I can tell you that much. As for opposites, outside of magnets, I don’t believe they exsist. > [@](#): > > Yes I am, but am just curious for alot of peoples differing opinions before I come in a put my point across again. The only fears I have is that some Muslims aren’t intergrating enough and this can be detremental to everyone living here and in Europe. So, what are you doing to help them integrate? > [@](#): > > No one gave it to me, but I would like my customs and practises which have been here since Britain was created to remain in place forever. How unbearably depressing. > [@](#): > > Cannot one take pride in what his nation is and what it stands for? I think it’s really better that you don’t. This is coming from an American, so believe me when I say I really do know whereof I speak: National pride is just dumb. Take pride in your accomplishments and achievements. Take pride in things you’ve _done_, not things you _are_. I’ve said this before about immigration in the US: the only people here who have any right to be _proud_ of being an American are the ones who weren’t born here, and had to work their asses off, and sometimes even imperil their lives, to get here. They _earned_ their patriotism; the rest of us are only here because of dumb luck. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/36 "2004-08-22T02:17:00Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Such as…burning witches? Expelling Jews? Crusading? General religious persecution of whoever doesn’t agree with the ruling elite of the moment? Since ‘Britain’ was created. Notice the difference. and besides, I’m not claiming we’ve been any better than Muslims, I’m just saying the differences are that if they were to become the majority, we’d see a step backwards for at least some of our rights. Can you have an abortion in Malaysia? > [@](#): > > Nice piece of arrogance there, passing your burden onto me. I never claimed it was ‘my’ country. Oh sorry, didn’t know apologies. > [@](#): > > And I’m still waiting for the cites I’ve asked you to produce. Which ones would you want them for. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/37 "2004-08-22T02:18:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The only fears I have is that some Muslims aren’t intergrating enough and this can be detremental to everyone living here and in Europe. It seems like an increasing number of people in Europe have that fear, and to some extent it’s fueling nationalist/racist movements. What a fun place Europe will turn into if this keeps up. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/38 "2004-08-22T02:29:45Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Since ‘Britain’ was created. Notice the difference. What, since the unification of the English and Scottish crowns? You’re claiming there was no religious persecution after that date? > [@](#): > > …I’m not claiming we’ve been any better … I’m just saying … we’d see a step backwards Is my editing a reasonable summary of what you said? > [@](#): > > Can you have an abortion in Malaysia? Yes, on the grounds that there could be a threat to the physical or mental health of the mother. In other words, very similar to British laws. > [@](#): > > Oh sorry, didn’t know apologies. If you don’t know, don’t assume. > [@](#): > > Which ones would you want them for. If you’d read my replies, you’d know. (Hint: Muslim immigration to Europe, and robberies by Muslims in Manchester) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/39 "2004-08-22T02:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > How does that work, then? Who gets Palestine? What about Kashmir? I live in California. Does that mean I have to give my house back to a Mexican? Does he then have to give it up to a Miwok Indian? And where do I go? I’ve got some British blood in me, can I move in with you? Nope, but thats a good example of sheer numbers and a different culture moving in. European culture and influence created your outlooks, your language, the way you dress drive and eat all come from here mostly. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think a far more important right is the right of every human, regardless of where they were born, to seek out a better life for themselves. If that means immigrating to the UK, or the US, so be it. It’s not my place to tell him no, not when I’d be doing exactly the same thing if I were in his shoes. I have no quarrel with anyone living here working hard making a living, I’m on about intolerant views which have a danger of becoming mainsteam, being allowed to flourish. > [@](#): > > “Different” is not synonymous with “worse.” Maybe the influx of Islamic cultures will make the UK a better place to live. It’s certainly done wonders for your cuisine, I can tell you that much. Yeah, I mean its only Islamic people who have good cuisine, never mind those Hindus. Plenty of intolerant people can have good tasting food! > [@](#): > > So, what are you doing to help them integrate? Less Saudi domination of religious schools and Mosques for a start. > [@](#): > > How unbearably depressing. Nice to know its appreciated. > [@](#): > > I think it’s really better that you don’t. This is coming from an American, so believe me when I say I really do know whereof I speak: National pride is just dumb. Take pride in your accomplishments and achievements. Take pride in things you’ve _done_, not things you _are_. I’ve said this before about immigration in the US: the only people here who have any right to be _proud_ of being an American are the ones who weren’t born here, and had to work their asses off, and sometimes even imperil their lives, to get here. They _earned_ their patriotism; the rest of us are only here because of dumb luck. National pride being dumb is your view, but here, its been hijacked by racists so there’s been a lack of proper patriotism (not the fakeness of it when playing football) its variable in every country, theres some with too much, and some with too little, there needs to be at least some balance. Why do you imply that the ones who are there because of dumb luck are lazy? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/40 "2004-08-22T02:34:37Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, on the grounds that there could be a threat to the physical or mental health of the mother. In other words, very similar to British laws. Is that really the law in the UK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=3)