# Whats the possibility of me living to see a Muslim dominated Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/41 "2004-08-22T02:35:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It seems like an increasing number of people in Europe have that fear, and to some extent it’s fueling nationalist/racist movements. What a fun place Europe will turn into if this keeps up. Allay my fears then. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/42 "2004-08-22T02:38:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nope, but thats a good example of sheer numbers and a different culture moving in. European culture and influence created your outlooks, your language, the way you dress drive and eat all come from here mostly. You realise that our number system comes from Arabia, tomatos potatoes and chillis from the Americas, much of our language from outside of Europe, … Oh, and Jesus lived in the middle east. > [@](#): > > I have no quarrel with anyone living here working hard making a living, I’m on about intolerant views which have a danger of becoming mainsteam, being allowed to flourish. EVIDENCE please!!! Otherwise there’s nothing to debate. > [@](#): > > Less Saudi domination of religious schools and Mosques for a start. Errrrrrrm…most mosques are Sylheti- or Bengali-dominated…because they’re the major Muslim cultures in Britain… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/43 "2004-08-22T02:39:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is that really the law in the UK? Yes. Of course, the definition of ‘potential threat to mental health’ is wonderfully flexible. It’s equally flexible in Malaysia. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/44 "2004-08-22T02:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > You realise that our number system comes from Arabia, tomatos potatoes and chillis from the Americas, much of our language from outside of Europe, … Whats that got to do with people moving into a whole continent and then shifting another people out of the way? I’m not bothered about exchanges of Ideas, am talking about the uprooting of one culture for another. > [@](#): > > Errrrrrrm…most mosques are Sylheti- or Bengali-dominated…because they’re the major Muslim cultures in Britain… Probably are, but what about throughout the Western World? > [@](#): > > EVIDENCE please!!! Otherwise there’s nothing to debate. [http://www.danielpipes.org/article/232](http://www.danielpipes.org/article/232) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/45 "2004-08-22T02:47:55Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Whats that got to do with people moving into a whole continent and then shifting another people out of the way? I’m not bothered about exchanges of Ideas, am talking about the uprooting of one culture for another. ‘Shifting people out of the way’? Other than paranoia, what makes you think this will happen? > [@](#): > > Probably are, but what about throughout the Western World? Eh? I’m talking about throughout Britain. To talk about Muslims in the ‘western world’ as a homogenous group is as meaningless as to equate Morocco with Indonesia. > [@](#): > > [http://www.danielpipes.org/article/232](http://www.danielpipes.org/article/232) You’ve already linked to one of his badly-written self-published articles. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/46 "2004-08-22T02:49:54Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Whats that got to do with people moving into a whole continent and then shifting another people out of the way? I’m not bothered about exchanges of Ideas, am talking about the uprooting of one culture for another. Just like what the Europeans have down to people all over the world. Karma is a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/47 "2004-08-22T02:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > You’ve already linked to one of his badly-written self-published articles. But it wasn’t his if you bothered to read it properly. > [@](#): > > ‘Shifting people out of the way’? Other than paranoia, what makes you think this will happen? Because this pattern has happened many many times before. What makes you think it eventually won’t happen to us? And if it does why should I have to accept it. > [@](#): > > Eh? I’m talking about throughout Britain. To talk about Muslims in the ‘western world’ as a homogenous group is as meaningless as to equate Morocco with Indonesia Ok, my mistake I will take what I said about that back. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/48 "2004-08-22T02:52:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Just like what the Europeans have down to people all over the world. > > Karma is a bitch. Yes, because two wrongs make a right :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/49 "2004-08-22T02:56:15Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But it wasn’t his if you bothered to read it properly. What bit of “by Daniel Pipes and Khalid Durán” did I not read right? And it’s also 11 years old. > [@](#): > > Because this pattern has happened many many times before. When have non-Muslims been ejected from a continent? ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/50 "2004-08-22T02:59:24Z")
I can tell you one thing that the large waves of Muslim immigration to Europe are bringing with them: anti-Semitism. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3999299&p1=0](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3999299&p1=0) This article doesn’t begin to describe the magnitude to which this is occuring in Europe. The chief Rabbi of France has asked French Jews to refrain from wearing Jewish markings in public lest they suffer anti-Semitic attacks. And many of these attacks are coming from Muslims. Anti-semitism, long dormant in Europe since the Holocaust, is enjoying a rise due to Muslims. I think that the massive influx of Muslim immigrants into Europe and into America is a VERY serious threat to our culture, and we are only witnessing the beginning of it right now. As middle-east conflicts deepen, more scores of people will be pushed to Western shores, many of them already seething with resentment and jealousy of America and of Jews in particular. Call me alarmist, but we definitely need alarmists to wake us up to this problem. People like Ryan Liam are the Paul Reveres that we need in today’s politically-correct world to tell the truth about these floods of Muslim immigrants. I agree with him completely; his lack of cites and his attitude troubles a lot of you here but I think his heart is in the right place. The Islamic world is rapidly encroaching on Western democracy and religious freedom, and Europe, particularly France. From an by Tom Segel: > [@](#): > > France has seen an explosion of mosques, now in excess of 1,200. With a growing resentment toward Muslim immigrants, the presence of these mosques increases the anxiety about Muslims felt by the French Christian community. The large number of young Muslims who claim no allegiance to France, but instead claim to be Islamists, further heighten this anxiety. [article](http://www.americandaily.com/article/2045) Instead of posting pages and pages of links, I encourage everyone to do online research about Europe’s Muslim immigration trends. It might be hard to think about here in America for our Yankee members, but try to put yourself in the shoes of a French or English Jew. Please try. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/51 "2004-08-22T03:05:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > What bit of “by Daniel Pipes and Khalid Durán” did I not read right? And it’s also 11 years old. > > When have non-Muslims been ejected from a continent? It doesn’t matter if its 11 years old, it raises some valid points which we seemed to have overlooked. They never have, but plenty of cultures before it have been uprooted moved, displaced, the Jews for one, yeah some remained, but plenty left after the Romans defeated them at Masada. The Native American tribes virtually wiped out. The Germanic invasions which collapsed part of Roman civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/52 "2004-08-22T03:07:29Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The chief Rabbi of France has asked French Jews to refrain from wearing Jewish markings in public lest they suffer anti-Semitic attacks. And many of these attacks are coming from Muslims. Sure, and Muslims are _never_ targeted due to their traditional dress. > [@](#): > > Anti-semitism, long dormant in Europe since the Holocaust, is enjoying a rise due to Muslims. Long dormant?!?! It’s never gone away. Nor has islamophobia (yep, it’s nothing new). > [@](#): > > France has seen an explosion of mosques, now in excess of 1,200. I make that one mosque to every couple of thousand Muslims. Hardly an ‘explosion’. And that article’s comments about Britain appear to be utterly ignorant both of the reasons for Muslim immigration (a little thing called Empire), and of daily reality. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/53 "2004-08-22T03:11:27Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They never have, but plenty of cultures before it have been uprooted moved, displaced, the Jews for one, yeah some remained, but plenty left after the Romans defeated them at Masada. The Native American tribes virtually wiped out. The Germanic invasions which collapsed part of Roman civilisation. The Muslims driven out of Spain… So cultures have clashed throughout history…so what? > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if its 11 years old, it raises some valid points which we seemed to have overlooked. Do you expect me to take seriously an article that repeatedly says “Like communists…” to invoke to bogeyman? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/54 "2004-08-22T03:12:07Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Allay my fears then. I’m not European, so I don’t think I can contribute anything beyond the very good posts **GorillaMan** is making. > [@](#): > > They never have, but plenty of cultures before it have been uprooted moved, displaced, the Jews for one, yeah some remained, but plenty left after the Romans defeated them at Masada. The Native American tribes virtually wiped out. The Germanic invasions which collapsed part of Roman civilisation. That’s true, if very non-applicable to this situation. Muslims would need to be an overwhelming majority and/or a group with a huge technological advantage for them to ‘relocate’ Europeans. Not that by that point there will be anyplace to relocate anyone to. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/55 "2004-08-22T03:17:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Sure, and Muslims are _never_ targeted due to their traditional dress. > Long dormant?!?! It’s never gone away. Nor has islamophobia (yep, it’s nothing new). > I make that one mosque to every couple of thousand Muslims. Hardly an ‘explosion’. And that article’s comments about Britain appear to be utterly ignorant both of the reasons for Muslim immigration (a little thing called Empire), and of daily reality. Compare Islamaphobia towards Anti Semitism, both are wrong, but one has parts of its society totally dedicated towards promoting it. The Anti semitism here among Westerners had the wind taken out of it by the holocaust, and for the fact that we perpretrated it, Muslims haven’t and therefore don’t feel as guilty. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/56 "2004-08-22T03:21:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Compare Islamaphobia towards Anti Semitism, both are wrong, but one has parts of its society totally dedicated towards promoting it. The Anti semitism here among Westerners had the wind taken out of it by the holocaust, and for the fact that we perpretrated it, Muslims haven’t and therefore don’t feel as guilty. So the holocaust was a _good_ thing? That seems to be the logical conclusion of your comment, that Islam needs to be bad and to learn a lesson. And in any case, ‘we’ (which earlier in the thread meant Britain) did not initiate the holocaust, so why is ‘our’ antisemitism lessened? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/57 "2004-08-22T03:21:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Compare Islamaphobia towards Anti Semitism, both are wrong, but one has parts of its society totally dedicated towards promoting it. The Anti semitism here among Westerners had the wind taken out of it by the holocaust, and for the fact that we perpretrated it, Muslims haven’t and therefore don’t feel as guilty. So maybe comparing modern Islam to modern anti-Semitism doesn’t fly, but comparing it to anti-Semitism in recent history does. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/58 "2004-08-22T03:28:01Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s true, if very non-applicable to this situation. Muslims would need to be an overwhelming majority and/or a group with a huge technological advantage for them to ‘relocate’ Europeans. Not that by that point there will be anyplace to relocate anyone to. Why is it non applicable? Ok, lets get this straight yeah, Germanic invasions occured, through centuries of the movement of people, same with the Turks from the Mongolian steppes and the Huns. Entire shifts of people who destroyed and attacked civlisations. Who said anything about military force to chuck us out? I’m talking about sheer numbers that are needed to keep the economy going, this is the way take overs and majorities occur from immigration, just look at Fiji, and the coup that happened there because Indians and Fijans couldn’t live together at all anymore. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/59 "2004-08-22T03:30:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m talking about sheer numbers that are needed to keep the economy going, this is the way take overs and majorities occur from immigration,. Given that the present population of Britain is shrinking, just who do you think will be paying the taxes that will pay your state pension? Yep, that’s right, the children and grandchildren of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/60 "2004-08-22T03:30:40Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > So the holocaust was a _good_ thing? That seems to be the logical conclusion of your comment, that Islam needs to be bad and to learn a lesson. > > And in any case, ‘we’ (which earlier in the thread meant Britain) did not initiate the holocaust, so why is ‘our’ antisemitism lessened? We fought and discovered what people could really achieve through hate alone. You ask a person in the Middle East about the Holocaust, they’ll admit its sad, but thats it, its nothing to do with them and not their problem. The Holocaust of course isn’t a good thing, geez, am just saying, we’re more receptive and understanding than we were before it. Have you seen clips of when British troops entered Belsen? I have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=4)