# Whats the possibility of me living to see a Muslim dominated Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/61 "2004-08-22T03:31:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why is it non applicable? Ok, lets get this straight yeah, Germanic invasions occured, through centuries of the movement of people, same with the Turks from the Mongolian steppes and the Huns. Entire shifts of people who destroyed and attacked civlisations. You made it sound like you think English civilization is going to be eradicated. I was saying it’s not likely. > [@](#): > > I’m talking about sheer numbers that are needed to keep the economy going, this is the way take overs and majorities occur from immigration, just look at Fiji, and the coup that happened there because Indians and Fijans couldn’t live together at all anymore. I don’t follow. What has the economy got to do with it? Muslims have to keep coming in to keep it going, or you need a certain amount of non-Muslims… what? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/62 "2004-08-22T03:33:19Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Given that the present population of Britain is shrinking, just who do you think will be paying the taxes that will pay your state pension? Yep, that’s right, the children and grandchildren of immigrants. So I should let intolerant and extremist followers of Islam work in this country because I’ll get a good pension at the end of my working life? That would mean I’d be as bad as them. Erm no thanks, and there are plenty of other countries in Asia where people can come here to work from. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/63 "2004-08-22T03:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t follow. What has the economy got to do with it? Muslims have to keep coming in to keep it going, or you need a certain amount of non-Muslims… what? No no, what I’m getting at as the economy grows and the level of British birth rates shrink, we’ll need more immigrants to fill the gaps. As the majority of them are Muslims from countries which dislike our policies and way of life, its going to become a matter of concern, some Muslims are decent and tolerant, but are usually marginalised by the loudmouth extremists of Islam. > [@](#): > > You made it sound like you think English civilization is going to be eradicated. I was saying it’s not likely. But in the future it will be eventually be marginalised. It’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/64 "2004-08-22T03:37:33Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > We fought and discovered what people could really achieve through hate alone. You ask a person in the Middle East about the Holocaust, they’ll admit its sad, but thats it, its nothing to do with them and not their problem. The Holocaust of course isn’t a good thing, geez, am just saying, we’re more receptive and understanding than we were before it. > > Have you seen clips of when British troops entered Belsen? I have. I’ve been to Auschwitz. I don’t see that a historical pissing-contest will help. Of course the Holocaust has little to do with the average kid in the Middle East, when there’s the occupation of Palestine, the persecution of Kurds, the overbearing influence of the US in Saudi at the expense of that country’s long-term stability, Kashmir, now Iraq,… But the Holocaust has little to do with me directly, either. I know nobody who was directly touched by it. I don’t see everyday consequences from it. That’s why people my age will come out with the predictable age-old stereotype slurs about Jews. They have little comprehension of what the Holocaust involved. None of us do, because none of us can imagine a European city with a large Jewish population. Cheetham Hill just doesn’t compare. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/65 "2004-08-22T03:38:34Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So I should let intolerant and extremist followers of Islam work in this country because I’ll get a good pension at the end of my working life? That would mean I’d be as bad as them. Erm no thanks, and there are plenty of other countries in Asia where people can come here to work from. So you’ve nothing against being dominated by Hindu cultures, for example? Just Islam? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/66 "2004-08-22T03:40:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It seems like an increasing number of people in Europe have that fear, and to some extent it’s fueling nationalist/racist movements. What a fun place Europe will turn into if this keeps up. Indeed. I never thought I would see racism blossoming in countries like Ireland and Denmark. How dissapointing!! ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/67 "2004-08-22T03:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve been to Auschwitz. I don’t see that a historical pissing-contest will help. Butwe learned to stop so much of the hate didn’t we? We learnt that we can’t go on doing this or we’d end up doing that. > [@](#): > > Of course the Holocaust has little to do with the average kid in the Middle East, when there’s the occupation of Palestine, the persecution of Kurds, the overbearing influence of the US in Saudi at the expense of that country’s long-term stability, Kashmir, now Iraq,… Muslims persecute Kurds, we don’t. I could go on and on about these things you’ve brought up, like how Israel shouldn’t show the Palestinians that ‘terror works’ and that Iraq is now free from a tyrant mass murderor, or that the Majority of people in Kashmir want to remain in democratic India. What I’m getting at about Europe is that I don’t want to see a civilisation thats been through so much in rights and religion to succumb to people who’ve immigrated from a place where its 150-300 years backward. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/68 "2004-08-22T03:46:22Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > So you’ve nothing against being dominated by Hindu cultures, for example? Just Islam? Hinduism is a national religion, but I just want to see more equality and diversity in the people who we bring in, not just more of the same. Either this, or more emphasis on teaching them how to intergrate and be more tolerant of the society they live in. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/69 "2004-08-22T03:47:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No no, what I’m getting at as the economy grows and the level of British birth rates shrink, we’ll need more immigrants to fill the gaps. As the majority of them are Muslims from countries which dislike our policies and way of life, its going to become a matter of concern, some Muslims are decent and tolerant, but are usually marginalised by the loudmouth extremists of Islam. And your proposed solution is what? When you’re talking about such large numbers of people, they cannot all be extremists and moderation and Westernization will occur. > [@](#): > > But in the future it will be eventually be marginalised. It’s a possibility. Again, you’ve shown no reason that your culture shouldn’t evolve like everybody else’s. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/70 "2004-08-22T03:47:55Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Probably are, but what about throughout the Western World? There aren’t many countries in Europe with huge numbers of Saudi immigrants (outside Hilton hotels, I mean). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/71 "2004-08-22T03:48:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Butwe learned to stop so much of the hate didn’t we? We learnt that we can’t go on doing this or we’d end up doing that. Time will tell. IMO, 60 years is too short a time span by far to really know if the Holocaust has fundamentally changed things. > [@](#): > > Muslims persecute Kurds, we don’t. Secular Turkey, prospective EU member and part of the ‘coalition of the willing’, does. > [@](#): > > What I’m getting at about Europe is that I don’t want to see a civilisation thats been through so much in rights and religion to succumb to people who’ve immigrated from a place where its 150-300 years backward. You have still to provide a scrap of evidence that Europe will ‘succumb’ to anything at all. You seem to be working on gut instinct alone. And where on earth does this ‘150-300 years’ comment come from? What are your defining features of eighteenth and nineteenth century Europe that make it such a turning point? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/72 "2004-08-22T03:50:51Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > …I just want to see more equality and diversity in the people who we bring in, not just more of the same. ‘More of the same’? You mean ‘more Muslims’? What makes all Muslims identical? > [@](#): > > Either this, or more emphasis on teaching them how to intergrate and be more tolerant of the society they live in. I’d prefer such lessons were targeted at the average white teenager. It’d reap greater results (assuming these lessons are as effective as you suppose…) ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/73 "2004-08-22T03:56:15Z")
What a silly thread. I live in the US and am an agnostic. I happen to know many people from the Middle East and Africa. They range from devout Muslims, devout Christians, and in the middle. I could really not care less if Muslims dominated the US. Probably wouldn’t be worse than the Christians dominating politics around here. I’m quite tolerant of other religions. An African woman I work with was actually shocked that I was totally indifferent to whether or not there was a god. I explained my position, and we get along quite well. There’s a point here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/74 "2004-08-22T03:57:24Z")
> [@](#): > > You have still to provide a scrap of evidence that Europe will ‘succumb’ to anything at all. You seem to be working on gut instinct alone. And where on earth does this ‘150-300 years’ comment come from? What are your defining features of eighteenth and nineteenth century Europe that make it such a turning point? Tell me, has Islamic society had its reformation or renaissance? Europe with its present birth rate declining, and in some areas like Italy and Spain where its barely keeping up with replacement of one birth for every one person who dies, need immigration to keep their economies going, to plug job gaps, skills shortages etc, this can and I believe will eventually rise to the levels of seeing the Muslim faith and population gain rapid rise in certain areas of Europe. How is this so flawed to make an assumption of? It doesn’t take a genius to think that; A) We’re the trillion dollar Economies of the Old World, which makes the people who live in 3rd World conditions right next door (Hello Algeria and Lybia) very attacted to the opportunities they can have. B) We’re the most tolerant of different cultures, which makes it easy to exploit and use to their own advantage. C) That with offers of high salaries to plug skills gaps, that people will come to work here no matter in most cases where they are from or their background. and… D) Most governments have been ignorant of the Islamic communities practises and extremism for some time until 9/11, and that extremism is on the rise because our policies towards the M.E is fuelling the anger which the Muslim community feels towards the West, many of which emigrate here. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/75 "2004-08-22T04:01:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Tell me, has Islamic society had its reformation or renaissance? You do realise that the idea of a true renaissance, as in a reawakening to lost ideals, is nothing more than myth? The Dark Ages weren’t so dark. > [@](#): > > …Most governments have been ignorant of the Islamic communities practises and extremism for some time until 9/11. D’oh! People like Abu Hamza have been on watchlists for many many years. But I’m sure you recognise the balance between preventing incitement and preserving free speech, and the difficulties involved. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/76 "2004-08-22T04:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘More of the same’? You mean ‘more Muslims’? What makes all Muslims identical? Their faith? > [@](#): > > What a silly thread. I live in the US and am an agnostic. I happen to know many people from the Middle East and Africa. They range from devout Muslims, devout Christians, and in the middle. I could really not care less if Muslims dominated the US. Probably wouldn’t be worse than the Christians dominating politics around here. I’m quite tolerant of other religions. An African woman I work with was actually shocked that I was totally indifferent to whether or not there was a god. I explained my position, and we get along quite well. There’s a point here somewhere. Not everyone shares your viewpoint, even though they should. But this doesn’t mean peoples fears and worries should be ignored. How do you know if it wouldn’t be worse? > [@](#): > > I’d prefer such lessons were targeted at the average white teenager. It’d reap greater results (assuming these lessons are as effective as you suppose…) So they couldn’t work for both then? Are you implying that only White people are predujice? If so, what planet do you live on? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/77 "2004-08-22T04:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > You do realise that the idea of a true renaissance, as in a reawakening to lost ideals, is nothing more than myth? The Dark Ages weren’t so dark. And the reformation? Or the age of enlightenment? Those were myths too right? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/78 "2004-08-22T04:07:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Their faith? So all Christians are identical? All atheists? > [@](#): > > So they couldn’t work for both then? Are you implying that only White people are predujice? If so, what planet do you live on? Of course not. But everything you’ve said so far suggests that you think Muslims have a uniquely prejudiced outlook. Do you deny this? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/79 "2004-08-22T04:09:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Their faith? Which is quite different from extremism, and their faith is not uniform. > [@](#): > > So they couldn’t work for both then? Are you implying that only White people are predujice? If so, what planet do you live on? Your idea of teaching people to appreciate your culture and adjust to suit you _is_ vaguely facist… ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/80 "2004-08-22T04:10:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course not. But everything you’ve said so far suggests that you think Muslims have a uniquely prejudiced outlook. Do you deny this? Yep. What am getting at is that if they ever got to the stage where our society got replaced by them, do you think you would have the amount of freedom you enjoy today? Freedom to drink, freedom of sex and relationships with the same gender? Sexual education? Womens rights to choose, to wear what they want, do whatever they want? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=5)