# Whats the possibility of me living to see a Muslim dominated Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894 "2004-08-21T22:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/121 "2004-08-22T13:09:38Z")
I’m happy to see that other posters have already debunked all the prejudice in the OP. Just let me add 16 tons of **[flak](http://www.humorlinks.com/python/pictures/different/13.html)** for the hate speech. (Taking up arms, jeez!) There is absolutely **no way** that Muslim and/or immigrant influence will negatively affect “our culture”. Much more potentially damaging, in fact, is resurgent fundamentalist christian influence like you can see in the US. I for one hope there will be _increasing_ influence of minority cultures on the mainstream. It can only result in more tolerance, dilution of christian dominance (which I would applaud), and better food too! > [@The Gaspode](#): > > And these 2nd and 3rd generations are totally integrated. They speak the language fluently and without an accent. They have all adopted the mores, values and most traditions of their adopted country. And apart from having family names that are a bit strange, and being somewhat darker then us of the ‘original stock’, their is really no difference. This is exactly my experience exclusively with second generation immigrant people I know. I also note that we have Muslim politicians who have immigrant roots. They tend to be with _left-leaning_ political parties, motivated typically by civil-rights and anti-discrimination issues. There is no conservative Muslim political party in Western Europe (yet) that I know of. And certainly none that is anywhere near as narrow-minded and bigoted as some of the conservative christian parties that we do have. I tried to look for stats on what percentage of people in the immigrant community are “like this”. Unfortunately I didn’t find any. I did get a feeling that, criminal and violent behaviour aside (which multiple parties are guilty of), the problem is exactly the prejudiced **perceptions** like the OP with legitimate anti-discrimination and emancipation efforts of immigrant community members. [Muslim girls in Belgium: individual freedom through religion?](http://www.emim.be/nfadil.php) [The Aubervilliers schoolgirls began covering their heads only this year. Their Algerian-born mother does not wear a headscarf](http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2155950) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/122 "2004-08-22T15:50:20Z")
[And then, something like this happens.](http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80) It’s all quite reasonable, and then… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/123 "2004-08-22T16:20:15Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > progressive activism is crushed by dictators who have, by and large, popular support. That I’d like to see a cite for, as it certainly doesn’t jibe with my impression. All of these dictatorial regimes do have pockets of carefully cultivated support ( you need some sort of powerbase ), but in general they’re not _popular_ in any genuine sense of the word. Even the supporters are more often just self-serving, rather than true fans and allies ( depending on the nature of the regime of course ). > [@](#): > > This is as much of a myth as the renaissence. The Muslims weren’t driven out. Basically, they were never there, apart from a small elit in Granada, ruling the country, and a native population, paying lip-service, because it suited them. When Isabel and Fernando threw out the “boy king” Boabdil (he was 36 at the time), he didn’t have to move far, just to the southern side of the Sierra Nevada, some 30 kms from Granada, where he got a fiefdom in Las Alpujarras. The great expulsion was not after Granada, but was rather was initiated by Philip III on the advice of the duke of Lerma and carried out in the period 1609-1614. In 1492 after the conquest of Granada the Jews had been expelled. In 1499 forced mass baptisms were held, resulting in the First Revolt of Alpujarras 1499-1502. After that the Moors were twice given the choice of conversion or emigration in 1502 and 1525 ( the second a bit of backsliding by Charles V, who had promised not to push that policy in 1518 ), which most Moors responded to by pretending to convert. As the Turkish wars heated up in the 1550’and 1560’s worries about a Moorish Fifth Column increased. As a result a determined effort was made to stamp out Moorish culture which rather predictably ended up precipitating the Second Revolt of Alpujarras in 1568-1570. Philip II responded to that violent event by forcibly resettling 100,000 - 150,000 Moors elsewhere in Spain, but as that wasn’t regarded as having solved the problem. Hence Philip III’s solution - it is estimated that 300,000 Moors were expelled from a total Spanish population of ~8,000,000 and a much larger proportion of southern Spain. Maybe a third of Valencia’s population was removed for example. The result was a serious further weakening of the already devastated Spanish economy which continued to spiral ominously downward. Cardinal Richileau ( taking advantage of a great opportunity to spred some anti-Spanish propaganda, France and Spain at that point being archenemies ) called it ’ the most barbarous act in the annals of mankind.’ - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/124 "2004-08-22T17:38:54Z")
Thanks for the broader image, Tamerlane. I was just reacting to that High School short hand that says that _Los Reyes Catollicos_ threw out those slimey _moros_, since a large part of the Iberian population in Andalucia was Muslim, at least officially. I think it’s interesting to note that this stronghold of Cathlicism - Spain - in fact was muslem longer than it has been Christian. And before that, it was of course the Visigoths and their pagan beliefs and Roman before that. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/125 "2004-08-22T18:22:49Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > . And before that, it was of course the Visigoths and their pagan beliefs and Roman before that. The Visigoths weren’t pagans. They were first arian christians, then became catholics around 600 AD. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/126 "2004-08-22T19:21:50Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I’ve heard this kind of talk all my life. When I was 18, it was about those leeches from Yugoslavia and Poland, coming to our fair country, living off welfare, keeping goats in the living room and destroying our culture. > And you know what - all those xenophobes were wrong. You are right —about Sweden’ s history.But wrong about the current problem. Swedes complained in the 50’s about “leeches” from Yugoslavia, just like Americans complained in the early 1900’s about all the immigrants who arrived then.But there is one huge, huge difference: Nobody in those immigrant groups ever flew planes into buildings or tried to destroy their newly adopted country. Swedes hated Yugoslavs and Poles, Americans hated the Irish, the Italians, the Jews.But the reasons were trivial:-they hated the newcomers who talked funny, dressed funny , cooked funny-smelling food and played funny-sounding music. But none of those Yugos, Poles,Irish preached open hatred, and publicly swore that they would violently overthrow the goverment in order to create a society cleansed of infidels. The muslims in Europe contain a significant and vocal minority who honestly believe that they have the right to attack and destroy western society, and they are actively supported by another “minority” (millions, tens of millions?) of Muslims in Saudia, Iran, and elsewhere. Many of the posts in this thread have mentioned the terrors of Christian history–the crusades, the inquisition…But by bringing up those subjects, you actually defeat your own argument, and support the OP’s fears.Christians did terrible things in the Middle Ages,…but \* then learned from their mistakes\*. Today, there is not one Catholic priest on the planet who advocates jihad or beheading unbelievers. It isnt “xenophobia”,Gaspode. A phobia is an illogical, irrational fear. But fear of jihadis is totally reasonable. The british police have found Muslims in possession of an entire warehouse full of dangerous chemicals, the FBI has found muslims gathering precise data about the strength of the steel supports in criticial buildings, and all supported by a well-organized community of religious fanatics. now back to the original issue–how long will it take before Europe goes muslim:–I dont think the British or French Paliaments will ever pass a law requiring women to wear a burqa, or prohibiting women from voting. France has already recognized the dangers, and is trying to prevent it (clumsily, in the school dress issue). What we need to do is remain open to diversity in INDIVIDUAL behavior, but pass rigid laws prohibiting any sort of subversive activity, including the preaching of jihad and “martydom”. ( and dont cry to me about Joe McCarthy.McCarthyism deteriorated to a futile witch hunt, because there weren’t any realistic numbers of witches out there. If only that were true of jihadis…) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/127 "2004-08-22T20:28:34Z")
**chappachula** : You seem to be advocating subjecting all Muslims to collective responsibility for extremists’ actions and views. I presume you don’t hold all Christians responsible for abortion-doctor-murdering fundamentalists, or for David Koresh, so why the double standards? As for those few Islamists who do actively encourage violence - there’s laws in many countries to tackle incitement. It’s very different when we’re talking about the larger number who merely express solidarity with/admiration for/etc terrorists. Yes it seems paradoxical to protect these points of view with the Western values of free speech - but what’s the alternative? Free speech for non-Muslims only? Free speech except when you say something we don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/128 "2004-08-22T22:01:27Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Why is this equally true of much of Africa? Because it has little or nothing to do with Islam. Maybe, but they are culturally backward as well as some Middle Easterners, the fact is these people because of Colonialism etc, have never experienced half of what Europe fought over for the last couple of centuries, or are in the situation where they are experiencing all the problems we faced at once. I’ll give you the example of Nigeria for one, a Muslim dominated north and Chrisitian dominated south, which cannot intergrate at all. > [@](#): > > Again, this idea of ‘being taxed for being different’. That does not happen ANYWHERE. Why would it happen here? Have you not read the Qu’ran? It specifically says this must happen because we’re not followers of their faith 2.5% of our income to go towards charities. > [@](#): > > And there’s plenty of laws enforced at the minute that I don’t want. Because of a little thing called democracy. Maybe I should just orchestrate a coup, and then I won’t have to have any laws I don’t like? Do what you want, but this still doesn’t give me a reason why I should tolerate the prospect of Muslim dominated Europe, ever. Thats the thing you see, if this were to ever happen, many of the laws, such as Homosexuality and co habating couples, progressive laws on womens rights, abortion, divorce, inheiritence would all be affected, for the worse. > [@](#): > > BWAHHH HAAA HAAAAAH HAHHAHAAAAAAA…pure blooded celts (well, probably pre-celts, whoever they were), every one of us… Even if I’m wrong and people move around and then become the dominant culture faith etc at my expense doesn’t mean I should just accept it and move on. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/129 "2004-08-22T22:15:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Maybe, but they are culturally backward as well as some Middle Easterners, the fact is these people because of Colonialism etc, have never experienced half of what Europe fought over for the last couple of centuries, or are in the situation where they are experiencing all the problems we faced at once. I can’t make head or tail of this sentence. > [@](#): > > Have you not read the Qu’ran? It specifically says this must happen because we’re not followers of their faith 2.5% of our income to go towards charities. And 10% of Muslims’ income is supposed to be donated to charity. So you find yourself rather well-off in comparison. > [@](#): > > Do what you want, but this still doesn’t give me a reason why I should tolerate the prospect of Muslim dominated Europe, ever. Thats the thing you see, if this were to ever happen, many of the laws, such as Homosexuality and co habating couples, progressive laws on womens rights, abortion, divorce, inheiritence would all be affected, for the worse. The same would be true if fundamentalist Christians were to become powerful. You’re focussing on the restrictiveness of Islam while refusing to acknowledge similar traits in other religions. You aren’t going to have a balanced or full view if you continue to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/130 "2004-08-22T22:27:28Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The Visigoths weren’t pagans. They were first arian christians, then became catholics around 600 AD. My mistake. They caught religion when they first tried to invade Italy and were (sort of) Christians when they went for the Iberian peninsula. > [@chappachula](#): > > It isnt “xenophobia”,Gaspode. A phobia is an illogical, irrational fear. But fear of jihadis is totally reasonable. Naw. Roughly a quarter - _a quarter_ - of the population in my town is Muslim. I live right next to a big fat terrorist target, the bridge between Denmark and Sweden (remember, Denmark was in the allience in Iraq) and blowing that up would send the whole Scandinavian economy down the toilet. But I’m not irrationally afraid of this forreign influence. They are not destroying our culture, if anything, we try to destroy theirs. About 18 months ago, someone torched the Mosque here in town. There _is_ a big problem with integration, but it ain’t their fault. We simply did a shit poor job in receiving them. Another thing. You really need to try to figure out _why_ 9/11 happened, and why the bombing in Madrid happened. I’ll give you a clue for free, where you can start your research: Google for “The fall of the house of Saud” and read a very interesting and frightening article. Then check out the documentary “The Commanding Heights” discussed elsewhere in GD (it’s available online, perfectly legal). Then get some popular science books about sociology and anthropology. Let me give you a hint: It’s not because “they hate our way of life.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/131 "2004-08-22T22:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > There is absolutely no way that Muslim and/or immigrant influence will negatively affect “our culture”. Much more potentially damaging, in fact, is resurgent fundamentalist christian influence like you can see in the US. I for one hope there will be increasing influence of minority cultures on the mainstream. It can only result in more tolerance, dilution of christian dominance (which I would applaud), and better food too! And laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc, absolutely NO negative affect? Hey, everyone advocates minorities in the mainstream, but I still wouldn’t like to see Muslims in any sort of way dominate Europe. You may whine about Christian dominance, but this religion only got watered down by people with the balls to stand up to it, no one stands up or talks about how Islam can be oppressive because of the pretext them being ‘not good Muslims’ or ‘its not what Islam means’ About the resurgence of Christian fundamentalism, what would be so different if an Islamic culture posed to dominate my continent in which I live had more violent resurgence of their faith? People seem to forget that Westerners, the ones who originated from these places, are Christian, just because our beliefs have been watered down doesn’t mean that we have to accept another form either. > [@](#): > > As for those few Islamists who do actively encourage violence - there’s laws in many countries to tackle incitement. It’s very different when we’re talking about the larger number who merely express solidarity with/admiration for/etc terrorists. Yes it seems paradoxical to protect these points of view with the Western values of free speech - but what’s the alternative? Free speech for non-Muslims only? Free speech except when you say something we don’t like? They may be few Islamists, I agree, but think about the majority of Muslims and their views on (I know I keep mentioning it but its a good point) Homosexuality, our sexual views, our openess. The thing is with Muslims is that if they ever became the majority in my country or Europe, we’d see a drastic shift and a large step backwards, for policies regarding everything we’ve fought for. Change in Islam is next to impossible, people just simply won’t think or accept things if they question the book. > [@](#): > > The guy who sold you a falafel last week? Please, everything you’ve posted in this thread show that you only have a sketchy view of what a Muslim is like, and using argument in the old reacist way: “Some of my best friends are colored people” is not helping you out. Yes sketchy, I don’t remember the last time when Modern Christians condoned terrorist actions which killed thousands of innocent people. I knew that ‘Some of my best friends are etc’ line, thats your opinion then think that, its just surprising that you would all gladly see the demise of Chrisitanity. I mean hey, the quicker the better, but when a more intolerant and more traditional binding religion alien to Europe comes along, hey we couldn’t be anymore hospitable to it. > [@](#): > > I do think the money paid for the war in Iraq would have been better spent by giving all families there a microwave, a tv set and a satellite dish and letting them figure out for themselves why it’d be better to get rid of Saddam.[/ Nieveity into their extreme. Quit with the ‘world view through rose tinted glasses’ > [@](#): > > And you know what - all those xenophobes were wrong. A lot of the people arriving here during the 50’s-70’s kept their ways and traditions, Yes but the thing is with the USA, Western Europe, Latin America and Eastern Europe is…we all have a common religion along the same lines, thats why they intergrated so well. With Islam and Christian/Secular based culture, you can’t. What we get is always self imposed segregation. > [@](#): > > I also note that we have Muslim politicians who have immigrant roots. They tend to be with left-leaning political parties, motivated typically by civil-rights and anti-discrimination issues. There is no conservative Muslim political party in Western Europe (yet) that I know of. And certainly none that is anywhere near as narrow-minded and bigoted as some of the conservative christian parties that we do have. Most left leaning parties advocate the independence of Palestine from brutal Israeli ‘tyrants’ and besides you’re right, they do protect their rights, and advocate more, thats why we’ve got a Sharia court which is a parallel court to the Canadian judicial service set up. Its always apparent that when Muslim immigrants get to the stage where they are near a majority size, the protest for rights and special status. We’ve got problems in our culture too, we’re too fearful of offending, even if it raises valid points. > [@](#): > > Yes, so you’ll have to adjust. So far I don’t think the reaction from Europe has been very good. I’m glad, they’re finally got the guts to speak out against what prospects their states have of becoming if they tolerate their differences even if they are negative and detremental to the state. Its mostly our fault, I’ll give an example, when France wanted immigrants to finance its economic growth in the 50’s and 60’s it went to the poorest and backward parts of the Muslim world to look for it, and now it has the very real prospect of being a threat. And no, I won’t adjust. I will act against it. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/132 "2004-08-22T23:04:16Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I can’t make head or tail of this sentence. Tribalism is a problem in the 3rd and Developing worlds, bringing it here can make it worse. A patchwork of ethinicities is a recipe for disaster on a Yugoslavian scale. > [@](#): > > And 10% of Muslims’ income is supposed to be donated to charity. So you find yourself rather well-off in comparison. Cite? > [@](#): > > The same would be true if fundamentalist Christians were to become powerful. You’re focussing on the restrictiveness of Islam while refusing to acknowledge similar traits in other religions. You aren’t going to have a balanced or full view if you continue to do that. Christian fundamentalists are mild in comparision to Islamic terrorists, trying to compare both along the same lines in the modern age is pretty flawed. > [@](#): > > Another thing. You really need to try to figure out why 9/11 happened, and why the bombing in Madrid happened Yes, explain Saudi Arabians and people all around the M.E, who lived pretty well (some still do) who still support and actively engaged in terrorism. They hate the Wests power, and pretty much blame it for everything they’ve got a problem with, either us or the Jews. > [@](#): > > There is a big problem with integration, but it ain’t their fault. Yeah, its both of our fault, us being too accomodating without completely understanding, and their fault for not intergrating as much. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/133 "2004-08-22T23:12:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc, absolutely NO negative affect? Didn’t someone already post about the primarily leftward leanings of Muslim politicians in Europe? In the United States, the largest Muslim population is probably in the Detroit area, which is represented by one of the most liberal people in our government. > [@](#): > > You may whine about Christian dominance, but this religion only got watered down by people with the balls to stand up to it, no one stands up or talks about how Islam can be oppressive because of the pretext them being ‘not good Muslims’ or ‘its not what Islam means’ That’s not true, and it’ll happen more as more Muslims go into ‘your’ country. > [@](#): > > People seem to forget that Westerners, the ones who originated from these places, are Christian, just because our beliefs have been watered down doesn’t mean that we have to accept another form either. Can you make any argument that doesn’t involve such silly overgeneralizations? “Westerners are Christian?” Again, how many different kinds of Christians are there? > [@](#): > > The thing is with Muslims is that if they ever became the majority in my country or Europe, we’d see a drastic shift and a large step backwards, for policies regarding everything we’ve fought for. So far it sounds like you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > Change in Islam is next to impossible, people just simply won’t think or accept things if they question the book. Why is this true of Islam and not Christianity? Fundamentalists are fundamentalists. They’re a minority who make a disproportionate amount of noise. > [@](#): > > Yes sketchy, I don’t remember the last time when Modern Christians condoned terrorist actions which killed thousands of innocent people. Not everything is the same, but I hope you’re not arguing that Christians hasn’t murdered their share of people in the name of god. > [@](#): > > Nieveity into their extreme. Quit with the ‘world view through rose tinted glasses’ Don’t use insults you can’t spell. > [@](#): > > Yes but the thing is with the USA, Western Europe, Latin America and Eastern Europe is…we all have a common religion along the same lines, thats why they intergrated so well. The US is mostly Protestant, Latin America is almost all Catholic. Western Europe has both of those, as well as Lutherans and Anglicans and a few other things. > [@](#): > > With Islam and Christian/Secular based culture, you can’t. What we get is always self imposed segregation. Theocratic culture is theocratic culture, I don’t really care whose it is. But being a Muslim does not require you to oppose secularism. If you like I’ll find a Muslim and ask him about it. > [@](#): > > Most left leaning parties advocate the independence of Palestine from brutal Israeli ‘tyrants’ The use of these kinds of hysterical arguments really weaken your case. > [@](#): > > and besides you’re right, they do protect their rights, and advocate more, thats why we’ve got a Sharia court which is a parallel court to the Canadian judicial service set up. It’s a civil court. > [@](#): > > Its always apparent that when Muslim immigrants get to the stage where they are near a majority size, the protest for rights and special status. Typical social conservative jabber about ‘special rights,’ check. > [@](#): > > And no, I won’t adjust. I will act against it. You’re a racist and you should probably just acknowledge it instead of this ‘defending Europe’ song and dance. And another thing. You keep going on about the “laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc.” You never fought for anything, **Ryan**. You’re 18. You never fought for anyone’s rights. In fact, the people who were fighting for equal rights were fighting against _people like you_ who argued that it would destroy the country’s culture, traditions, and civilization if ‘they’ were in charge. You aren’t protecting the future, you’re shoving yourself into the past. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/134 "2004-08-22T23:21:26Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Tribalism is a problem in the 3rd and Developing worlds, bringing it here can make it worse. A patchwork of ethinicities is a recipe for disaster on a Yugoslavian scale. Sure…and we don’t have home-grown tribalism, we all live in one big happy continent. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Cite? My mistake. I was thinking of the 10% of Judaism (and therefore of the Old Testament). So I guess Islam is stingy in comparison 😛 …and in any case, surely a law forcing everyone to donate 2.5% to charity wouldn’t be discriminating against anyone? > [@](#): > > Christian fundamentalists are mild in comparision to Islamic terrorists, trying to compare both along the same lines in the modern age is pretty flawed. Both are capable of irrational bloodthirst. If you want to compare by body-count alone, then fine. I don’t see how that proves much. > [@](#): > > Yes, explain Saudi Arabians and people all around the M.E, who lived pretty well (some still do) who still support and actively engaged in terrorism. They hate the Wests power, and pretty much blame it for everything they’ve got a problem with, either us or the Jews. If you really believe all that, you’ve swallowed a whole load of prejudices hook line and sinker. > [@](#): > > Change in Islam is next to impossible, people just simply won’t think or accept things if they question the book. Once again, you’re pretending that Islam is the only religion with fundamentalist literalist devotion to religious texts. Any knowledge of Islamic scholarship and of Sharia would make it clear that questioning and interpreting the Koran is integral to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/135 "2004-08-22T23:33:21Z")
Oh, and if homosexuality is a clear-cut issue in Islam, could you explain these random links I found in two minutes on Google: [http://www.al-fatiha.net/](http://www.al-fatiha.net/) [http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-26/reg/gay\_muslims\_come.htm](http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-26/reg/gay_muslims_come.htm) [http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/gay.htm](http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/gay.htm) [http://www.glas.org/](http://www.glas.org/) I could go on. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/136 "2004-08-22T23:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > And another thing. You keep going on about the “laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc.” You never fought for anything, Ryan. You’re 18. You never fought for anyone’s rights. In fact, the people who were fighting for equal rights were fighting against people like you who argued that it would destroy the country’s culture, traditions, and civilization if ‘they’ were in charge. You aren’t protecting the future, you’re shoving yourself into the past. I was brought up in the culture native to this continent, so I have might not of fought for my rights, but I can tell you now, in a Muslim dominated Europe, you’re damn sure I’d have to fight for my rights. Besides, we might have done what you’ve described, but two wrongs don’t make a right, where does it say that because my forefathers colonised and built an Empire, that we ‘owe’ it to them to come here and then impose their culture and traditions onto us? > [@](#): > > Didn’t someone already post about the primarily leftward leanings of Muslim politicians in Europe? In the United States, the largest Muslim population is probably in the Detroit area, which is represented by one of the most liberal people in our government. Because they’re a minority! They are going to go for the political party that will guarantee the type of living they desire, and a assured promise that there will be no interference in their beliefs. But the thing is when you get to countries where they come from, they have a more conservative and traditional political background, the fact that they vote liberal doesn’t necessarily translate into being one. They do it to cover their own backs because they know that in any other more right leaning party, they won’t get away with it. > [@](#): > > That’s not true, and it’ll happen more as more Muslims go into ‘your’ country. Maybe, but that will be because people won’t don’t have parties or ordinary politicians to go towards, so they will instead rally around more extremist views, because they’re the only ones who say what they like to hear. This is why tip toeing around subjects and not talking about it directly can lead to people going towards extremism itself. > [@](#): > > Can you make any argument that doesn’t involve such silly overgeneralizations? “Westerners are Christian?” Again, how many different kinds of Christians are there? Its not an overgeneralisation, its a fact, sure, there maybe different sects, hundreds of them, but in the end we’re all Christian and share a few common beliefs and laws which are inheirent in our culture, this is why it is easier for them to intergrate, rather than Christian/Islamic. > [@](#): > > So far it sounds like you’re wrong. Yes because that is how you prove I am wrong, you just say it. Sounds like the majority of people here are in denial. > [@](#): > > Why is this true of Islam and not Christianity? Fundamentalists are fundamentalists. They’re a minority who make a disproportionate amount of noise. Yes, and which one has made the loudest bang in recent years. > [@](#): > > You’re a racist and you should probably just acknowledge it instead of this ‘defending Europe’ song and dance. Never knew Islam was a race. I don’t see why I should have to accept the possiblity of a Muslim dominated Europe? Is this so hard to comprehend? Why should I just shut up and put up? It really doesn’t make any sense. I’m proud of my culture and its people, why should I have to wait and see another set of people with a culture that is different and less advanced than ours take up shop? > [@](#): > > Not everything is the same, but I hope you’re not arguing that Christians hasn’t murdered their share of people in the name of god. Nope, but most Christians have learned the error of their ways, can’t say they have. > [@](#): > > Don’t use insults you can’t spell. Don’t act so nieve then. > [@](#): > > Theocratic culture is theocratic culture, I don’t really care whose it is. But being a Muslim does not require you to oppose secularism. If you like I’ll find a Muslim and ask him about it. Yes you don’t have to care about it, even if it does swamp your country, Christian or otherwise. Its that attitude which breeds this in the first place. Yes, I could find a Muslim too who like secularism, Irshad Manji and Salman Rushdie, but they are few and far between. Come on, are you telling me honestly that there isn’t a need for a large scale reform of Islamic thought and teaching? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/137 "2004-08-22T23:44:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > in the end we’re all Christian and share a few common beliefs and laws which are inheirent in our culture, this is why it is easier for them to intergrate, rather than Christian/Islamic. I am disgusted that you choose to impose your assumptions on others. I’m not Christian, I never have been, and I find many aspects of Christianity repulsive. Yet I share the tolerance and desire for freedom of which we are familiar…golly, how can that possibly be?..Because it has _nothing to do with religion_. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/138 "2004-08-22T23:47:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, and if homosexuality is a clear-cut issue in Islam, could you explain these random links I found in two minutes on Google: > > [http://www.al-fatiha.net/](http://www.al-fatiha.net/) > [http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-26/reg/gay\_muslims\_come.htm](http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-26/reg/gay_muslims_come.htm) > [http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/gay.htm](http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/gay.htm) > [http://www.glas.org/](http://www.glas.org/) > > I could go on. Can you say that the wider Muslim community on a whole would accept it? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > Sure…and we don’t have home-grown tribalism, we all live in one big happy continent. We’ve gotten to the stage where it isn’t a life or death situation any more. > [@](#): > > My mistake. I was thinking of the 10% of Judaism (and therefore of the Old Testament). So I guess Islam is stingy in comparison …and in any case, surely a law forcing everyone to donate 2.5% to charity wouldn’t be discriminating against anyone? Muslims don’t pay the tax I don’t think, its only applicable to non believers. > [@](#): > > Both are capable of irrational bloodthirst. If you want to compare by body-count alone, then fine. I don’t see how that proves much. Yes but we’ve seen a decline in Christianity and a decline in the numbers of violence around the world in the name of our faith. How many compared to Islamic terrorism have Christian terrorists committed in this year. What it proves is that we aren’t as expansionist and violent as we previously were. > [@](#): > > If you really believe all that, you’ve swallowed a whole load of prejudices hook line and sinker. So Saudis haven’t funded and supported terrorism at all? And there is no sympathy for what Islamists have carried out in the name of God? > [@](#): > > Once again, you’re pretending that Islam is the only religion with fundamentalist literalist devotion to religious texts. Any knowledge of Islamic scholarship and of Sharia would make it clear that questioning and interpreting the Koran is integral to Islam. The Qu’ran hasn’t been changed like the Bible has, people may interpret it differently, but no one questions the writing in the book. Yes questioning and interpreting maybe it is integral, called Ithijad, but many people do not practise this or follow it correctly. I’m not saying its the only religion with fundamentalist devotion, what I’m saying is though that this is more of a threat than some bible basher in the south at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/139 "2004-08-22T23:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I am disgusted that you choose to impose your assumptions on others. I’m not Christian, I never have been, and I find many aspects of Christianity repulsive. Yet I share the tolerance and desire for freedom of which we are familiar…golly, how can that possibly be?..Because it has nothing to do with religion. I’m not making assumptions about anything, what I’m getting at that its easier for a Pole, or a Frenchman, or a Spanish person or an Italian to get along rather than a Frenchman and Englishman with a Tunisian or Algerian, the same applies to them, the Europeans share common cultural values, so do Muslims with eachother, conflict can derive from improper integration of both sides, this is our governments fault, which are constantly failing to deal with the situation, but seem to allow more in. You may very well be offended and disgusted at what I say, I don’t care, I don’t see any problem in wanting my own culture to not be taken over or sidelined by another. But this doesn’t mean I advocate extreme measures to deal with the situation at this moment. The gun thing was only a worst case scenario option, which I believe has a opportunity to happen. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894/140 "2004-08-22T23:56:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Can you say that the wider Muslim community on a whole would accept it? I don’t think so. They could come to accept it. Don’t forget, it was only four decades ago that homosexuality was illegal in Britain. Public attitudes, no matter what the religion, can change very quickly. > [@](#): > > We’ve gotten to the stage where it isn’t a life or death situation any more. Eh? Northern Ireland sectarianism and Basque separatism have been taken over by tree-hugging peaceniks? > [@](#): > > Muslims don’t pay the tax I don’t think, its only applicable to non believers. Yes, Muslims are expected to pay the money to charity. I don’t know where you get the idea that it’s a ‘tax’, anyway. It’s an obligation within their religion. > [@](#): > > Yes but we’ve seen a decline in Christianity and a decline in the numbers of violence around the world in the name of our faith. How many compared to Islamic terrorism have Christian terrorists committed in this year. What it proves is that we aren’t as expansionist and violent as we previously were. No. It proves that we’ve better ways to gain power over others - such as financial coercion. > [@](#): > > So Saudis haven’t funded and supported terrorism at all? Well, duh, Bin Laden was Saudi. (note WAS Saudi - until he was stripped of his citizenship…) > [@](#): > > The Qu’ran hasn’t been changed like the Bible has ??? Unless you mean politically-motivated translations such as the King James version, I don’t know what on earth you mean. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying its the only religion with fundamentalist devotion, what I’m saying is though that this is more of a threat than some bible basher in the south at the moment. No, you’re saying that _you believe_ it to be the greater threat. Just because you’re afraid, it doesn’t necessarily follow that there’s something to be afraid of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-possibility-of-me-living-to-see-a-muslim-dominated-europe/260894.md?page=8)