# What's the problem with US evangelical Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007 "2017-08-29T10:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/61 "2017-08-31T14:36:20Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > So, why do evangelicals tend to oppose abortion being legal? Because, as **tomndebb** mentions, opposition to abortion in the Christian church far predates Roe v. Wade. There are documents from the second century AD unambiguously condemning abortion, as well as from Protestant leaders after the Reformation. > [@](#): > > Also, why the emphasis on Paul? Because Jesus never mentioned abortion, or homosexuality for that matter. If one wants to use the Bible as a source of moral authority, then it makes sense to rely on the parts that mention a topic. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/62 "2017-08-31T14:53:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because, as **tomndebb** mentions, opposition to abortion in the Christian church far predates Roe v. Wade. And I posted a rebuttal to **tomndebb** ’s post, which means it’s a prebuttal to your post. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/63 "2017-08-31T15:00:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > So, why do evangelicals tend to oppose abortion being legal? The combination of quotes above from Waltke does make sense; if killing human life = capital punishment and killing fetus /= capital punishment then fetus /= human life. Yes but Waltke is probably an outlier. Plenty of evangelicals believe that a fetus has a soul and is a human life. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/64 "2017-08-31T15:28:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And I posted a rebuttal to **tomndebb** ’s post, which means it’s a prebuttal to your post. It wasn’t a very strong prebuttal, IMO. The opinion of one academic does not establish what US evangelicals thought - I would prefer a poll or something like that. And I don’t see how a Senator winning a close race based on his anti-abortion stance shows that American evangelicals viewed abortion with indifference. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/65 "2017-08-31T16:18:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It wasn’t a very strong prebuttal, IMO. If it wasn’t very strong, it should have been easy for you to demolish it. > [@](#): > > The opinion of one academic does not establish what US evangelicals thought - I would prefer a poll or something like that. You’re right - the official stance of the Southern Baptist Convention doesn’t have any relation to what US evangelicals think. Ditto what’s in _Christianity Today._ :rolleyes: :dubious: :rolleyes: With respect to the latter, it isn’t so much that the content of _CT_ = what evangelicals think, but rather that _CT_ reliably stays within the bounds of what the evangelical community regards as acceptable discourse. IOW, this has nothing to do with the \*opinions \*of the academics in question, but the _facts_ they cite, and their connection to this discussion. I’d have thought that was pretty obvious. > [@](#): > > And I don’t see how a Senator winning a close race based on his anti-abortion stance shows that American evangelicals viewed abortion with indifference. That isn’t what it shows. Did you read? (SATSQ: No.) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/66 "2017-08-31T20:14:40Z")
DinoR, since you seem to have some knowledge on the evangelical PoV, could you present the more charitable version of it which you’d like to be more visible? I have no difficulty admitting that one can be evangelical without subscribing to all/most of what I wrote in the OP yet it still leaves me curious about 1) what that better version of evangelicalism is 2) What might account the rest of the movement aside from common human failings ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/67 "2017-08-31T20:33:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If it wasn’t very strong, it should have been easy for you to demolish it.You’re right - the official stance of the Southern Baptist Convention doesn’t have any relation to what US evangelicals think. Ditto what’s in _Christianity Today._ :rolleyes: :dubious: :rolleyes: > > With respect to the latter, it isn’t so much that the content of _CT_ = what evangelicals think, but rather that _CT_ reliably stays within the bounds of what the evangelical community regards as acceptable discourse. > > IOW, this has nothing to do with the \*opinions \*of the academics in question, but the _facts_ they cite, and their connection to this discussion. I’d have thought that was pretty obvious. That isn’t what it shows. Did you read? (SATSQ: No.) Christianity Today is not a party line magazine, it publishes different perspectives within the Christian community. It is not surprising that a college professor had a relatively more liberal take on abortion. That does not mean that the professor spoke for the evangelical movement. For instance, right after Roe v Wade, Christianity Today had a editorial that said apocalypticly “Christians should accustom themselves to the thought that the American state no longer supports, in any meaningful sense, the laws of God, and prepare themselves spiritually for the prospect that it may one day formally repudiate them and turn against those who seek to live by them.” Francis Schaeffer’s book “How should we then live” is kind of the founding text for evangelicals as a political movement. It says abortion is against Christianity and Roe v Wade is symptomatic of the assault of truth and standards that would inevitably lead to infanticide and euthanasia if not stopped. He said Christians were morally obligated to organize and vote to have it overturned. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/68 "2017-08-31T20:37:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Jonathan Dudley (CNN)](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/30/my-take-when-evangelicals-were-pro-choice/): > > [Randall Ballmer](http://religionandpolitics.org/2012/10/27/iowa-a-pastors-son-notes-when-politics-came-to-the-pulpit/), chair of the Dartmouth religion department: > Certainly some evangelicals were anti-abortion all along. But the evangelical establishment, such as it was, was pro-choice in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and there’s no indication that that drew substantial opposition from the people in the pews at the time. Antiabortion didn’t become a widespread stance among evangelicals until the late 1970s, and crystallized as the party line in the early 1980s. > > As Christian blogger Fred “Slacktivist” Clark [points out here](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/), the switch was so recent at that point that when Christian publisher InterVarsity Press published a book in 1984 that took the 1970 party line on abortion as a given, the outraged reaction of evangelicals caught them completely by surprise. Both the Southern Baptists and the Intervarsity book took the position that abortion should be outlawed and only allowed in case of rape, incest, gross deformity, or the mother’s health. That is a pro-life position, it may be more moderate than most of us currently have, but that is totally different than the abortion on demand framework of Roe v Wade. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/69 "2017-09-01T03:18:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And I posted a rebuttal to **tomndebb** ’s post, which means it’s a prebuttal to your post. You posted a couple of citations indicating that the issue of abortion was not universally consistent among Evangelicals in the 1960s. However, I never claimed that it was a universal position. I only noted that it was held by more people than just Catholics and your “rebuttal” does nothing to disprove my statements. I do not claim that there was no shift in views–just as the issue of Creationism changed from the 1960s (when it was generally accepted, even among many Evangelicals), but the notion that the Evangelical community in its entirety suddenly reversed its views to adopt a papist position as a political one needs more support than that of one blogger. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/70 "2017-09-01T11:41:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You’re right - the official stance of the Southern Baptist Convention doesn’t have any relation to what US evangelicals think. Ditto what’s in _Christianity Today._ :rolleyes: :dubious: :rolleyes: I didn’t say it had no relation. As an ELCA Lutheran, I am uncomfortably familiar with the phenomenon of the upper echelon of the church hierarchy believing and pushing social policies that are quite different from what the laity thinks as a whole. > [@](#): > > IOW, this has nothing to do with the \*opinions \*of the academics in question, but the _facts_ they cite, and their connection to this discussion. AFAICT the facts being discussed are what US evangelicals thought about abortion circa Roe v. Wade, and that they were indifferent hasn’t been factually established. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/71 "2017-09-01T11:48:56Z")
Religion is not a democracy. Of course the laity are likely to want to the church to be closer to the secular world. The fact that so many mainstream churches are giving in is why so many true believers are seeking guidance elsewhere. And I can’t blame them, even as an atheist. What is the purpose of a religion if it just reflects society’s morals? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/72 "2017-09-01T14:03:26Z")
The Church always has been a mirror, after the initial proselytizing. The RC Church generally trims it’s political views to whichever is presently dominant. Amongst the oligarchs, an oligarch; amongst the Kings, a supporter of the throne; amongst the moderns, Democracy all the way, Baby ! Not applicable to the ‘Brights’, the \*Strong Atheist \*regimes like North Korea — _naturalich_. However, Church hierarchies are more likely to urge reconcilement to the New and Shiny than are their staid old parishioners. They went to college too. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/73 "2017-09-19T19:02:45Z")
Interesting short article: [http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing](http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing) TLDR: In 2011, 30% of white evangelicals thought private immoral conduct did not prevent officials from fulfilling their public duties. In 2016, it was 72%. The overall tendency among white evangelicals is to tribally support whatever the GOP leader says or does, everything they say about principles and morality is a squid squirting ink. As I said, this is an overall tendency, if any evangelicals who aren’t like that would like to step in and talk about the better side of US white evangelicalism or go on about the other 5/6, it would be nice to hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/74 "2017-09-19T19:16:58Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Interesting short article: [http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing](http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing) > TLDR: In 2011, 30% of white evangelicals thought private immoral conduct did not prevent officials from fulfilling their public duties. In 2016, it was 72%. The overall tendency among white evangelicals is to tribally support whatever the GOP leader says or does, everything they say about principles and morality is a squid squirting ink. > > As I said, this is an overall tendency, if any evangelicals who aren’t like that would like to step in and talk about the better side of US white evangelicalism or go on about the other 5/6,\*\* it would be nice to hear about it.\*\* Except they’re the ones who might actually not judge lest ye be judged and don’t throw stones and are aware of the beam in their eye. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/75 "2017-09-19T19:19:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Interesting short article: [http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing](http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing) > TLDR: In 2011, 30% of white evangelicals thought private immoral conduct did not prevent officials from fulfilling their public duties. In 2016, it was 72%. The overall tendency among white evangelicals is to tribally support whatever the GOP leader says or does, everything they say about principles and morality is a squid squirting ink. > > As I said, this is an overall tendency, if any evangelicals who aren’t like that would like to step in and talk about the better side of US white evangelicalism or go on about the other 5/6, it would be nice to hear about it. [There is a difference between cultural evangelicals and actual evangelicals.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/03/29/where-is-trumps-evangelical-base-not-in-church/?utm_term=.0311205458c0)Cultural evangelicals are people whose families go to church and actual evangelicals actually go to church. The cultural conservatives are more likely to be Trump supporters and to be more interested in economic issues and immigration than social issues. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/76 "2017-09-19T19:23:05Z")
So, we hardly ever hear from the better part of US white evangelicalism because they’re just too nice and humble? If so, they better accept that their branch of religion will become associated with the worse part of it. Otherwise, TESTIFY! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YOxVjbGvUpI/maxresdefault.jpg "FUS RO DAH!!! Benny Hinn Style") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOxVjbGvUpI) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/77 "2018-09-04T00:26:19Z")
I’ve heard the Roman Catholic Church described as a continuation of the Roman empire through soft power. Could white Evangelical Christianity (hereby, “WEC”) be a continuation of the CSA? It would explain the nasty, xenophobic, domineering, tribal, pre-modern aspects of it. I’m not sure about the term “pre-modern”. When we hear some WEC leader talk about tornados being divine punishment for homosexuality, we find it ridiculous but that’s little different than medieval peasants thinking the plague was divine punishment, farmers in antiquity making offerings at the temple to get a good harvest or hunter-gatherers ritually sacrificing an animal to ensure a bountiful hunt. The god they talk about must be understood as a tribal god too, a protector of WASPs in the same way that YHVH was a protector of the Jews; born again general Boykin is a good example: “the article revealed Boykin giving a speech about hunting down Osman Atto in Mogadishu: “He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, ‘They’ll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.’ Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.”” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/78 "2018-09-04T00:40:03Z")
Religious fundamentalism is correlated with authoritarianism. Authoritarianism is the real problem, and religious fundamentalism tends to be the spiritual belief of authoritarians. Authoritarians in the middle east become Islamic jihadists. In the US they become right wing christians. But christianity itself isn’t the problem. Jimmy Carter is a christian. So was Mr. Rogers. The problem is right wing authoritarianism. > **[Right-wing authoritarian personality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism)** > > In psychology, the right-wing authoritarian (RWA) is a personality type that describes somebody who is highly submissive to their authority figures, acts aggressively in the name of said authorities, and is conformist in thought and behavior. The prevalence of this personality type in a population varies from culture to culture, as a person's upbringing and education play a strong role in determining whether somebody develops this sort of personality. > The right-wing authoritarian personality was... > **[Religious Fundamentalism, Right-Wing Authoritarianism, and Hostility Toward...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327582ijpr0601_5)** > > In this article, I extend the work of Altemeyer and Hunsberger (1992) on religious fundamentalism to several non-Christian groups. The psychometric properties of the Religious Fundamentalism scale ... ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/79 "2018-09-04T02:09:24Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > The evangelical Christians were partially sincere folks who wanted simple but rock-solid unquestionable answers they could have absolute faith in. That’s nice. Why did they pick the ugliest? ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/80 "2018-09-04T02:44:12Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > To those familiar with them, is the Prosperity Gospel similar to The Secret/law of attraction\*? I have only a faint acquaintance with either but both seem to say something along the lines of: “Believe it strongly enough and your dreams (especially of being rich) will come true as a direct effect of that belief”. Have I got it right? > > - This thing: [Secret (disambiguation) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)) Now that I read the Wiki entry, the New Age author quotes the Bible in her 3 step process of 1) Ask in prayer 2) believe 3) receive Only in a hyper simplistic manner. The “god” most people who use The Secret pray to isn’t the Judeo Christian god by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s very hard for Americans to hear “god” and think of anything else. It’s a lot more similar to the Deist god, or even a pantheistic “the universe” as god. And really, when you get down to it, what it’s really saying is that you should focus your mind on your goal, making it a reverberating priority that manifests in all of your thought patterns. The easiest way to do that is to hijack the worship circuitry and overhaul it for your purposes. The prosperity gospel is almost the exact opposite. Where The Secret says that your desire and willpower is ultimately what determines where you end up, which is extremely individualistic and empowering, the Prosperity Gospel says obey, sacrifice unto god, or suffer. It’s a far cry of a difference, and speaks to the problems inherent with a lot of evangelical interpretations of biblical teachings (almost all of the difference between them and other protestant branches are that they ignore the potentially self empowering interpretations and amp up the “obey or burn” side up to fantastical extremes). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007.md?page=5)