# What's the problem with US evangelical Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007 "2017-08-29T10:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/81 "2018-09-04T03:34:56Z")
The problem isn’t limited to US Evangelical Christianity (neither term is limiting), and it doesn’t include all Christians who call themselves “evangelical” any more than it includes all religious people. If I ever come up with a more precise handle I’ll let you know, though. The question I’d ask is why in the US the very sick combination of - conmen who act at the macro level rather than moron-by-moron, - control-obsessed bigots who paint the world in tones of “you’re totally with me or I’m against you”, - and easily-conned or cowed people has (a) gelled and (b) become identified with that particular religious group. Perhaps part of the answer is in looking at where do those same people congregate elsewhere. And, in places where those tend to congregate elsewhere, do they also get attracted by groups calling themselves “evangelical churches”? For example,[those 9 guys](https://www.rt.com/news/435249-valencia-metro-german-evangelicals/) who recently caused a panic in a subway in Valencia (Spain) by yelling “you’re all going to die”, “you’re all going to burn”, “this place stinks of alcohol and sin” were evangelicals from Germany, hellbent on converting Spain because them Catholics aren’t Christians and bikinis are the devil’s tools (very bad at marketing, too, as the stunt ended with them in jail awaiting trial). Where would you normally have expected to find that kind of asshole, in Germany? I can tell you that Spanish evangélicos don’t do that kind of thing; our Iglesia Evangélica (singular) is a Roma-originated mixture of Lutheran structures with Catholic symbolism, and the other iglesias evangélicas are imports from Latin America with long speeches and a tendency to name their children Cristian: none of them feel the need to yell “you’re all going to die” at the neighbors. As for where you’d look for people like that? The noisy ones, in radical soccer fan clubs and radical political groups; the mass-conmen, trying with better or worse success to climb political and corporate structures; and the sheep, following anybody who speaks in tones of authority but staying very far from the noisy ones. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/82 "2018-09-04T10:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps part of the answer is in looking at where do those same people congregate elsewhere That would be an interesting exercise. Off the top of my head, what about Russia? One gets the impression that much of the Orthodox leadership tends to similarly authoritarian attitudes and daft conspiracy theories, and lends a lot of credence to Putin and his control systems, notwithstanding all that might be said about him and his oligarchs. In France, there are Catholic equivalents (Protestants hardly figure politically), but the erstwhile association with anti-democratic/republican (in the European rather than US sense) ideologies seems much less in evidence; though Islamophobia has become a proxy for much broader racial prejudices - it is usually couched in terms of defending official state secularism rather than prioritising the ideas and status of the Church. A similar trick is often employed by the equivalent sort of political movements in the Netherlands and the UK - often, it can be couched in terms of liberal acceptance of homosexuality and women’s rights, for example. The Bible and significant religious organisations just aren’t in evidence as part of those movements. Moreover, such movements tend to have their own political parties; capturing one of the major existing parties is either impracticable or just not taken to be the way to success for them. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/83 "2018-09-04T14:10:43Z")
Because they know they are ordained by God, and everything they believe i the absolute truth. People who confuse beliefs with facts are extremely dangerous people. And they all know there is a god and only their religion is right. And one of my beliefs is that most of the rah-rah’s know that the Straight White Christian Men should be running everything because they are better than everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/84 "2018-09-04T14:20:06Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > most of the rah-rah’s know that the Straight White Christian Men should be running everything because they are better than everyone else. Not quite that, but because God has ordained that men be the leaders of their families and in life. It isn’t just the evangelicals who are responsible for institutional misogyny; they seem to have inherited it from the Catholics and Mormons. The white part is implicit in the European and European-American origins of even mainstream Christianity, and was formerly explicit for the Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/85 "2018-09-04T17:09:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not quite that, but because God has ordained that men be the leaders of their families and in life. … I would call that a distinction without a difference. I think most people would agree that Middle Eastern monotheism is not very good for women and those in the defined under classes, but US Evangelicals are surprisingly fanatical. They manage to redefine one of the basic foundations of the country as its exact opposite, religious freedom means freedom to force others to adhere to one’s own religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/86 "2018-09-04T17:25:53Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I would call that a distinction without a difference. So would I. But I’d go further and say it’s using a claim about God’s will to relieve oneself of responsibility for one’s own hatreds. Why, it even makes those hatreds required! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/87 "2018-09-04T20:32:46Z")
Yes, most of them are anti-abortion and pro-adoption, until you put the word “gay” in front of the latter. Then it’s “child abuse.” ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/88 "2018-09-05T01:58:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Yes, most of them are anti-abortion and pro-adoption, until you put the word “gay” in front of the latter. Then it’s “child abuse.” And **I don’t care** about their opinions on abortion, adoption, private prisons, or Colin Kaepernick, I just want them to stop trying to legislate them. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/89 "2018-09-05T12:04:35Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I would call that a distinction without a difference. > > I think most people would agree that Middle Eastern monotheism is not very good for women and those in the defined under classes, but US Evangelicals are surprisingly fanatical. They manage to redefine one of the basic foundations of the country as its exact opposite, religious freedom means freedom to force others to adhere to one’s own religious beliefs. Well, the Puritans would heartily agree with them. That is exactly what they meant by religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/90 "2018-09-05T13:29:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > [There is a difference between cultural evangelicals and actual evangelicals.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/03/29/where-is-trumps-evangelical-base-not-in-church/?utm_term=.0311205458c0)Cultural evangelicals are people whose families go to church and actual evangelicals actually go to church. The cultural conservatives are more likely to be Trump supporters and to be more interested in economic issues and immigration than social issues. No true evangelicals? No true Scotsman! ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/91 "2018-09-06T00:50:08Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Well, the Puritans would heartily agree with them. That is exactly what they meant by religious freedom. They did not draft the constitution ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/92 "2018-09-06T22:34:28Z")
2017 comment: > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Interesting short article: [http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing](http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/14/25415400/white-evangelicals-believe-in-nothing) > TLDR: In 2011, 30% of white evangelicals thought private immoral conduct did not prevent officials from fulfilling their public duties. In 2016, it was 72%. The overall tendency among white evangelicals is to tribally support whatever the GOP leader says or does, everything they say about principles and morality is a squid squirting ink. > > As I said, this is an overall tendency, if any evangelicals who aren’t like that would like to step in and talk about the better side of US white evangelicalism or go on about the other 5/6, it would be nice to hear about it. Interesting thread. **Nava** makes a good point: we really don’t understand this phenomenon if we don’t know why it happened in the US, but not in other high income countries. Here’s some info consistent with the above quote. Over at 538, they are working on their election model. They find that non-evangelical whites are the key swing voters. [INDENT]As a general principle, the swingiest districts tend to be those with lots of white voters who do not identify as evangelical Christians. (By contrast, white evangelical voters are overwhelmingly Republican, while nonwhite voters — with a few exceptions like Cuban-Americans in South Florida; note the presence of Florida’s 25th and 26th districts in the top 10 — are overwhelmingly Democratic.) These voters are plentiful in the Northeast, and in the Upper Midwest, where they were vital to President Trump winning states such as Ohio and districts such as Maine’s 2nd Congressional District. [/INDENT] It’s been noted that movement conservatism is to some extent [a grift](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con) insofar as Infowars is a front for snakeoil vitamin supplements, overpriced gold coins are endorsed by multiple RW celebrities, and donating to conservatives tends to fill your mailbox full of investment scams (the oil field in the placenta) while donating to liberals fills your mailbox with… more appeals to liberal and charitable causes. [The Long Con | Rick Perlstein](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con) What I’m wondering is what sub-profile of conservatives are most susceptible to ripoffs. Just trying to get a handle on the OP from another angle. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/93 "2018-09-07T01:28:28Z")
Older, uneducated, incurious, provincial? How did Antebellum slave holders get the non-slave owning majority of Southern whites to fight? From what I’ve read, it seems to have been based on the idea that they (Southern WASPs) were under attack and had to rally together to save their way of life and tribe. From the beginning of the Civil Rights era, there was an alliance between the “business wing” composed rich or rich wanna-bes and the “social wing” rural whites against the federal government, blacks/women/gay civil rights and the welfare state. For decades, the business wing used fear, xenophobia and conspiracy theories to enlist social wing members as foot soldiers but the Tea Party seems to have been an awakening of the social wing; They realized they could seize most of the power within the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/94 "2018-09-07T02:49:18Z")
> [@j666](#): > > They did not draft the constitution Luckily for us. But the story I learned in school was about the Pilgrims and Puritans fleeing religious oppression. What I didn’t learn was about their religious oppression. Except marginally about the founding of Rhode Island. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/95 "2018-09-07T04:16:24Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > What I’m wondering is what sub-profile of conservatives are most susceptible to ripoffs. Just trying to get a handle on the OP from another angle. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Older, uneducated, incurious, provincial? I did a little digging. Scammers tend to favor the elderly. [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4708889/) investigated a sample of elderly folk without dementia. They found that the following factors were related to scam susceptibility: 1. A diagnosis of mild cognitive impairment. 2. Fewer years of education 3. higher age. Interestingly, gender was insignificant. Over [Hispanics and blacks](https://webarchive.library.unt.edu/eot2008/20090118160243/http:/ftc.gov/opa/2007/10/fraud.pdf) were found to be more susceptible to fraud. But after controlling for age, level of education, and “degree of comfort with one’s debt” race became insignificant. Those saying they have “More debt than they can comfortably handle” are more likely to be victims of fraud. Interestingly, for the types of fraud investigated in the survey, those over 65 were _less_ likely to be victims. Gender was still insignificant. tl;dr: Data is contradictory. Aside from education, I’m not seeing a clean story popping out. More research necessary. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/96 "2018-09-07T05:13:31Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s been noted that movement conservatism is to some extent [a grift](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con) insofar as Infowars is a front for snakeoil vitamin supplements, overpriced gold coins are endorsed by multiple RW celebrities, and donating to conservatives tends to fill your mailbox full of investment scams (the oil field in the placenta) while donating to liberals fills your mailbox with… more appeals to liberal and charitable causes. [The Long Con | Rick Perlstein](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con) Thanks for the link. It made me think of this analysis of GOOP: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/25/magazine/big-business-gwyneth-paltrow-wellness.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/25/magazine/big-business-gwyneth-paltrow-wellness.html) as well as the link between Alex Jones and Logan Paul: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/oY45PzpdDM0/maxresdefault.jpg "Selling Stupid: Alex Jones") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY45PzpdDM0&t=0s) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/IlA1TEF2r4c/maxresdefault.jpg "Selling Stupid: Logan Paul") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlA1TEF2r4c&t=0s) tl;dr: say dumb shit to attract attention, convert some of it into followers and sales, isolate your followers from the rest of society in a clique/cult-like way by making them think they have access to something special and are unfairly treated by the majority of people who don’t buy the dumb shit you say to attract attention. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/97 "2018-09-07T05:48:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Those saying they have “More debt than they can comfortably handle” are more likely to be victims of fraud. Makes sense, to me both point at “bad impulse control and/or bad analytical skills”. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/98 "2018-09-07T11:02:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Luckily for us. But the story I learned in school was about the Pilgrims and Puritans fleeing religious oppression. What I didn’t learn was about their religious oppression. Except marginally about the founding of Rhode Island. I did, possibly because I grew up in the area, or we might have had better text books. That whole business in Salem was a clue, too. > [@Nava](#): > > Makes sense, to me both point at “bad impulse control and/or bad analytical skills”. Bad luck can cause financial insecurity and a willingness to take greater risks to get out from under. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/99 "2018-09-07T14:12:42Z")
Also, they cite the Bible for everything. It’s not their opinion, it says so in the Bible, so nobody can dispute it. Why are you against gay marriage.I I’m not against gay marriage, the Bible is. Why are you anti-abortion? I’m not anti-abortion, the Bible is. On and on and on and on. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007/100 "2018-09-07T14:36:26Z")
I was amused to read in another thread **Nava** reporting that Spanish newspapers have been publishing articles to explain to their readers such concepts as Intelligent Design, Young Earth Theory, and Inerrant Bible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-problem-with-us-evangelical-christianity/795007.md?page=6)