# What's the 'proper' format for a haiku? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386 "2009-01-22T01:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/1 "2009-01-22T01:29:40Z")
In class today, we were talking, and I when the classroom was empty for a moment, I wrote an ode on the dry erase board. T’was kind of touching too. . . But then someone noted that it wasn’t a “true” haiku. I thought a haiku was just supposed to be seventeen syllables long. The classmate said it was supposed to be three lines of five, seven, then five syllables. So, like, what is it _supposed_ to be? Tripler I dunno. I’m just a dopey engineer. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/2 "2009-01-22T01:43:35Z")
Traditional Japanese haiku have requirements beyond the number of syllables, and “serious” English haiku often ignore the 5-7-5 pattern or impose other restraints. But for most Americans a haiku just means a poem of three lines, 5-7-5. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/3 "2009-01-22T02:04:13Z")
Actually, isn’t it 5-7-5 _mora_? Although that concept doesn’t render itself easily in an English haiku. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/4 "2009-01-22T02:16:23Z")
It is moras (no need for italics, though, since it’s an English word:)), but good luck finding someone who isn’t a linguistics geek that can apply moras to English. ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/5 "2009-01-22T02:51:25Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Actually, isn’t it 5-7-5 _mora_? Although that concept doesn’t render itself easily in an English haiku. Yes, it is 5-7-5 mora in a Japanese haiku, but that doesn’t really matter because, while English does have moras (morae, if you’re feelin’ nasty), we do not think of our language in terms of them, but, rather, in syllables, so we use syllables for our haiku. Also, in Japanese haiku, a kigo (season word) is necessary for it to be a true haiku. If the haiku on the dry erase board wasn’t about something at least remotely seasonal, then it wasn’t really a haiku regardless of the syllables. Of course, English haiku writers usually ignore this rule. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/6 "2009-01-22T03:00:16Z")
> [@seodoa](#): > > Also, in Japanese haiku, a kigo (season word) is necessary for it to be a true haiku. If the haiku on the dry erase board wasn’t about something at least remotely seasonal, then it wasn’t really a haiku regardless of the syllables. Of course, English haiku writers usually ignore this rule. Admittedly, no, it didn’t. It _did_ mention “Sparrows” though. . . but not in the ornithological sense. Thus, it was remotely related to a haiku in name only. Tripler I stand a more learned man. ---
**Author:** ![PopeJewish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@PopeJewish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PopeJewish)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/7 "2009-01-22T03:04:30Z")
> [@seodoa](#): > > Yes, it is 5-7-5 mora in a Japanese haiku, but that doesn’t really matter because, while English does have moras (morae, if you’re feelin’ nasty), we do not think of our language in terms of them, but, rather, in syllables, so we use syllables for our haiku. > > Also, in Japanese haiku, a kigo (season word) is necessary for it to be a true haiku. If the haiku on the dry erase board wasn’t about something at least remotely seasonal, then it wasn’t really a haiku regardless of the syllables. Of course, English haiku writers usually ignore this rule. I was also under the impression the form could also be broken into a 7-10 syllable (or mora?!) pattern, the kigo being the most important aspect of it being a haiku (and the limit of 17 syllables/mora whatever) ---
**Author:** ![Spacegirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Spacegirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spacegirl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/8 "2009-01-22T03:07:18Z")
Good guestion **Tripler** I really like haiku threads They’re best in summer I tell everyone I could speak like this all day They think I’m crazy ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/9 "2009-01-22T03:10:17Z")
[QUOTE=cckerberos] But for most Americans a haiku just means a poem of three lines, 5-7-5. [/QUOTE] The English “haiku” Is so damn easy to write. What’s the friggin’ point? ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/10 "2009-01-22T03:29:36Z")
Oh, forgot to add my example, it’s really timely, too (CJK characters follow): 鮟鱇の骨まで凍ててぶち切らる Ankou no / hone made itete / butikiraru The monkfish / frozen to the bone / can be cut (violently) This shows the mora vs syllable difference and the use of _kigo_. While an English speaker would view the word “_ankou_,” as two syllables, in Japanese it is viewed as 4 moras, a・n・ko・u so “_ankou no_” has 5 moras, satisfying that rule. The _kigo_ in this haiku is _ankou_ (monkfish), which is seasonly associated with mid-winter. Incidentally, we’re in the middle of our big monkfish festival this week. Much deliciousness is to be had. Oh, and in Japanese haiku, the haiku is not dividen into lines, but written out vertically with no regard for the 5/7/5 separation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/11 "2009-01-22T03:32:02Z")
I’ve often wondered, on seeing the affection online for haikus in slightly altered formats, whether the same was true over in Japan. Do Japanese youths hunch over their computer keyboards, typing out the odd sonnet? ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/12 "2009-01-22T03:37:24Z")
> [@PopeJewish](#): > > I was also under the impression the form could also be broken into a 7-10 syllable (or mora?!) pattern, the kigo being the most important aspect of it being a haiku (and the limit of 17 syllables/mora whatever) Haiku are often broken into different 17 syllable groupings, but 5-7-5 is the traditional and standard “dictionary definition” of a haiku. ETA: I can’t speak for the entire country, but my (Japanese) university had a poetry circle that occasionally cranked out haiku, tanka, and other forms of traditional Japanese poetry for fun. ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/13 "2009-01-22T04:57:01Z")
five syllables first the second line has seven third is five again ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-proper-format-for-a-haiku/482386/14 "2009-01-22T05:41:18Z")
A haiku should include a reference to the season and it should have more than one interpretation. Specifically, it should seem like it is going to say something trite based on the first two lines, then flop it about to mean something unexpected or (ideally) have multiple levels of meaning via the last line. Homonyms can help with this, but that’s much more difficult in English than in Japanese.