# What's the purpose of Cul De Sacs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044 "2017-08-29T17:29:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/21 "2017-08-29T21:10:34Z")
The cul-de-sac behind my apartment has a lot of traffic day and night–people looking for a place to park. There’s a serious shortage of parking at the complex next door and they use the cul-de-sac as an overflow lot. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/22 "2017-08-29T21:14:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **sevenwood** : > > Recognize that the “alternate route” you’re referring to involves driving through a residential area. One that folks live in. Yes, and the folks who live in that area are the ones driving through it. Imagine a development surrounded by four major, through roads. If the development has exits onto all four of those roads, then when the residents go places, they’ll go via all four of them. But if the development only has one exit, then when the residents go places, they all go via the same main road. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/23 "2017-08-29T21:17:56Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural? > Have you all been replaced with pod people? Anyone who knows, knows that we speak English here, and therefore form plurals after the English fashion. Those who don’t know, shouldn’t ought to say. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/24 "2017-08-30T00:02:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The kids have to walk to the end of the street!! Dear Og what is this world coming to? When they’re old, they’ll be able to tell their grandkids that they walked to the end of the street uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/25 "2017-08-30T00:07:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural? > Have you all been replaced with pod people? _Ils sont_ culs-des-sacs! Charlotte, the largest city in North Carolina, prohibits them, thereby eliminating the need for service, emergency, delivery, trash trucks to drive double the distance unproductively and to minimize the chances of residents living past a road closure caused by a utility line break or a house fire from being isolated. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/26 "2017-08-30T01:13:36Z")
I’ve lived on one for 25 years. Great for the kids. A nearby town is infested with them. The fire department hates them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/27 "2017-08-30T03:00:51Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Pods person. I hereby award you one Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/28 "2017-08-30T03:03:26Z")
In some situations, it’s probably just a monetary decision. Property with road frontage costs more. Say you’re a developer who’s just bought a piece of cheap property with no road frontage located between two existing roads. You have to buy at least one additional piece of property adjacent to the road so you can build an access road to your property. But why buy two of them? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/29 "2017-08-30T04:14:29Z")
> [@toast\_pakora](#): > > Dead end streets don’t appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough. Or just put a gate across the road leading into the development. That will accomplish the same thing. The trouble with this solution is that developers and residents don’t get to decide whether or not they can do these things (unless the streets stay private, which they almost always don’t). Here in South Carolina, once the streets become public (that is, owned by the state/county/city), you CANNOT gate the street to reduce access, as it’s against the law. Speed bumps, stop signs, etc. have to be approved by the state/county/city, too. I live near a well-known senior development south of Charlotte (a Del Webb property). The streets were originally privately owned by the development. The residents decided to deed them to the county, so they wouldn’t have to pay the HOA fees for eventual repair/replacement. They got really upset when they found out that meant they had to take the gates down at the entrances. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/30 "2017-08-30T04:27:08Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Speed bumps, stop signs, etc. have to be approved by the state/county/city, too. And assuming they follow the guidelines, I don’t think “discouraging through traffic” is a valid reason for either. Speed bumps are for streets on which there’s a documented history of excessive speeding, and stop signs are strictly for managing the flow of traffic at intersections. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/31 "2017-08-30T10:06:00Z")
A few years ago, Virginia made cul de sacs much more difficult to get building permits. Their reason is that these kinds of developments create huge traffic jams on the few through roads that do exist. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/21/AR2009032102248.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/21/AR2009032102248.html) > [@](#): > > The changes come as cash-strapped states and localities can no longer afford the inexorable widening of secondary roads that are overburdened with traffic from the subdivisions, strip malls, schools and office buildings that feed into them. The system forces drivers to enter these traffic-choked roads to go even 50 yards or so to the neighborhood coffeehouse or elementary school. North Carolina and Portland, Ore., are moving on similar fronts. > > “When you have 350 to 400 miles a year of new roads you have to maintain forever, it’s a budgetary problem,” said Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D), who pushed the new regulations through the Commonwealth Transportation Board last month. Virginia has had to cut more than $2.2 billion from its six-year transportation spending plan. “But it’s not just about the money. It’s about connecting land-use and transportation planning and restricting wasteful and unplanned development.” > > To buy a gallon of milk, the Goffs have to drive onto Linton Hall Road, one of the busiest streets in the region, and go a mile to Safeway. Goff said that it would be easier if there were back roads that connected to the Safeway but that it wouldn’t be worth the increase in through traffic. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/32 "2017-08-30T14:20:42Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > The term is 18th century, just about the time Soho was getting a loose reputation ( Soho being a French hunting call, and cul-de-sac meaning base-of-the-bag ) Incidentally, the name of Bilbo Baggin’s house _Bag End_ is a calque of cul-de-sac. It was the name of Tolkien’s aunt’s house, and it undoubtedly appealed to Tolkien because of the word play and the appropriateness of the name as a residence for a character named Baggins. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/33 "2017-08-30T15:09:03Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > Incidentally, the name of Bilbo Baggin’s house _Bag End_ is a calque of cul-de-sac. It was the name of Tolkien’s aunt’s house, and it undoubtedly appealed to Tolkien because of the word play and the appropriateness of the name as a residence for a character named Baggins. It’s pretty clear, I think, that the family name “Baggins” is supposed to have come from the name of the estate “Bag End” (also note that the hoity-toity branch of the family used the name “Sackville” - the same name in French-form). ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/34 "2017-08-30T15:23:56Z")
and the worst part about newer subdivisions in my area which are laid out like this are they often don’t have sidewalks either. so kids walk down the middle of the street and shoot you nasty looks if you have the gall to expect them to step out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/35 "2017-08-30T15:55:19Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > It’s pretty clear, I think, that the family name “Baggins” is supposed to have come from the name of the estate “Bag End” I’m not sure whether by “supposed to have come” you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of “Baggins” with “Bag End” is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (_Labingi_ and _Labin-nec_). As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote > [@J.R.R. Tolkien](#): > > _Baggins_ > H[obbit name] _Labingi_. It is by no means certain that this name is really connected with C[ommon] S[peech] _labin_ ’ a bag’; but it was believed to be so, and one may compare _Labin-nec_ ‘Bag End’ as the name of the residence of Bungo Baggins (_Bunga Labingi_). I have accordingly rendered the name _Labingi_ by _Baggins_, which gives I think, a very close equivalent in readily appreciable modern terms. So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/36 "2017-08-30T16:44:01Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I’m not sure whether by “supposed to have come” you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of “Baggins” with “Bag End” is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (_Labingi_ and _Labin-nec_). > > As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote > So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits). Thanks. I suppose “Sackville” could be a bit of folk etymology too by the branch of the family that felt “Baggins”/“Bag End” was too common, and wanted to be more elegant, since Tolkien does say that “it is believed” (by Hobbits) that Baggins and Bag End are related words. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/37 "2017-08-30T19:23:11Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > to keep through traffic down. > > [https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/socio75.html](https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/socio75.html) That is an excellent link. It is a paper discussing the history of block design, comparing grids to loops and cul-de-sacs and then proposing a new suburban layout that uses straight roads but that are loops or cul-de-sacs. With connecting walking paths and green space to make pedestrian use more palatable. It also discusses the trade offs of the various designs. Grid patterns are problematic because traffic has to sort out right of way at each intersection, necessitating traffic lights. This forces cars to have to stop every intersection, roughly every 7 seconds. That ruins the benefit of the car - speed of transportation. Also, cities with grids often have to turn to making alternating one-way roads and other means to channel the traffic. The next concept is the wandering, curvy roads that don’t go in straight lines and don’t go straight through. This reduces the incentive to use the roads as shortcuts, which reduces through traffic somewhat. Loops and cul-de-sacs are next, whereby you close off portions of road that either dead end or return to the street where they started. This means very little traffic. There are also trade offs associated with pedestrian use of each type, generally with the opposite result of benefit vs. detriment. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Me, I’d prefer a quiet through street. The reason cul-de-sacs and loops were invented was the fact that through streets are seldom quiet. That article above also discusses that the factors that affect car use primarily are number of people in household, distance from business district, and household wealth. Street patterns were ninth on the list of influences. > [@toast\_pakora](#): > > Dead end streets don’t appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough. Speed bumps create the biggest hassle to the residents who have to negotiate them every day. They are rough on passengers and cars, and don’t really work that well because cars just accelerate and brake hard between the bumps. Four way stops on every corner are likely already there, since residential neighborhoods seldom use internal stoplights but do like to aid intersection navigation. But drivers will race through a straight road that has three or four stop signs if it keeps them from sitting through 2 or three traffic lights to go the main roads. > [@](#): > > Or just put a gate across the road leading into the development. That will accomplish the same thing. Wait, you don’t like dead end roads, but are okay with fencing off a road to create… a dead end road? Or do you mean an access gate that requires a code or card? Those are more trouble for the residents, who might want deliveries or visitors. Plus, from my experience at gated apartments, they either leave the gates open or people squeeze through behind someone else entering. > [@](#): > > The book also mentions that having developments with no through streets, feeds a lot more traffic onto the adjoining main roads which causes more traffic jams because there are no alternate routes. It’s well worth reading, albeit depressing, to learn how sprawl happened. Traffic is a problem whether the roads are a grid or a closed development. With closed developments, you need to plan the arterials and connectors to handle the traffic for that area. But increasing population is increasing traffic everywhere, and whether you put that traffic on arterials to sit at lights or funnel it through grids to stop at 4 way stops every 100 ft, too many cars is too many cars. The real issue is suburban development that isolates residential from commercial use and makes pedestrian use more troublesome than driving. Once you are already out driving your car to get from A to B, it’s simpler to stop off at C, D, and E than to plan walking trips to accomplish the same. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Seems like most of the newer bumps/humps are broad and low, as opposed to the older abrupt ones. I generally dislike them, and have found that I can traverse these new ones pretty much without decreasing my speed. Same way I roll through the multitudinous stop signs. Yeah, people try that and scrape up the road on both sides of the humps because they look gradual. Or they are gradual and don’t have any effect. > [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, and the folks who live in that area are the ones driving through it. Imagine a development surrounded by four major, through roads. If the development has exits onto all four of those roads, then when the residents go places, they’ll go via all four of them. But if the development only has one exit, then when the residents go places, they all go via the same main road. True, but straight through roads are draws for non-residents who wish to avoid traffic lights and crowded streets, so they cut through neighborhoods, often at higher speeds than residents would because of children. > [@jz78817](#): > > and the worst part about newer subdivisions in my area which are laid out like this are they often don’t have sidewalks either. so kids walk down the middle of the street and shoot you nasty looks if you have the gall to expect them to step out of the way. I grew up in a neighborhood without sidewalks. Nice large yards, big trees, two lane blacktop streets. Low traffic, lots of running around in streets, walking in streets, riding bikes, etc. When I got old enough to drive, never really had trouble with kids not moving out of the way. Now when I live in more modern subdivisions where the houses are closer, the yards smaller, and sidewalks parallel to the street, I am uncomfortable using the sidewalks - to me it feels like an intrusion into that person’s space, because the 2 to 4 feet of margin and then the sidewalk mean you’re halfway to the house sometimes. In a low traffic suburban loop and cul-de-sac neighborhood, I don’t see the point of the sidewalks, anyway. Pay attention and don’t block traffic like a dumb ass so you don’t get run over. > [@markn\_1](#): > > As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote > So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits). Are you really saying Tolkien didn’t know if he intended the name Baggins and Bag End to be related? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/38 "2017-08-30T20:46:45Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I’m not sure whether by “supposed to have come” you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of “Baggins” with “Bag End” is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (_Labingi_ and _Labin-nec_). > > As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote > So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits). Given that _The Hobbit_ was written in draft form on the blank space in a student’s exam book from Oxford as a story for his son, and wasn’t even clearly set in “Middle-Earth” at the time he started writing it, in reality the name Baggins and the name Bag-End must have been related in some way to each other, and since Tolkien has said that “Bag End” was the name of his aunt’s house, and he presumably picked that name on purpose, then one must suspect that “Baggins” came from “Bag End”. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/39 "2017-08-30T21:40:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural? > Have you all been replaced with pod people? You do know that they don’t have cul de sacs in France, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044/40 "2017-08-30T22:38:43Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Are you really saying Tolkien didn’t know if he intended the name Baggins and Bag End to be related? No, I’m saying that in the quote that I posted, he says that it is “by no means certain” that labingi and labin-nec are related. As I stated, I’m discussing the “internal” relationship of the names, that is, their relationship in the fictional world of Middle Earth as Tolkien described it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-purpose-of-cul-de-sacs/795044.md?page=3)