# What's the real difference between O'Keefe and other media? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309 "2011-03-11T16:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/41 "2011-03-12T03:17:07Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > _Da Ali G Show_ got rebuttal from its interview subjects before the shows were aired? I must have missed that. Are you seriously offering Ali G and Borat as journalists? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/42 "2011-03-12T03:32:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > However, I was responding specifically to charges altered the audio to make it appear that people said things they didn’t say, which, as you are conceding is a completely baseless claim. It does not appear to me that he concedes any such thing: > [@L.G. Butts](#): > > I don’t find any evidence that he dubbed audio, but he spliced in different scenes, **cut out audio, made it appear that things were said that were not,** lied outrageously, and made everything look as damning as possible even in cases where there was nothing done wrong. Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/43 "2011-03-12T04:02:14Z")
He falsified the audio, **Ibn**. If you want to quibble with my use of the word “dubbed,” knock yourself out. It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that he falsified it. That is not something Michael Moore does, or anyone esle in the mainstream media except for Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/44 "2011-03-12T05:14:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It does not appear to me that he concedes any such thing: > > Emphasis mine. You need to reread what he wrote. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by L.G. Butts, Ph.D. > **I don’t find any evidence that he dubbed audio,** but he spliced in different scenes, cut out audio, made it appear that things were said that were not, lied outrageously, and made everything look as damning as possible even in cases where there was nothing done wrong. Furthermore, the claim that O’Keefe “cut out audio, made it appear that things were said that were not” is simply not supported by the report on the incident put out by ACORN, nor is it supported the California AG’s report. Here is the report put out by ACORN’s attorney which freely concedes that O’Keefe did not purport to show ACORN employees saying things that weren’t said. [http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) Furthermore, here is the California AG’s report where again there is no reference to O’Keefe somehow making it appear that ACORN employees said something that was not said. [http://ag.ca.gov/cms\_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888\_acorn\_report.pdf](http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888_acorn_report.pdf) I’m sorry, but Miller was simply wrong when he claimed that O’Keefe made it appear that ACORN employees said something they didn’t say. There’s nothing to support such a statement and ACORN itself isn’t making such a claim. If people want to allege that O’Keefe is a jackass or not a real journalist that’s fine and one is on solid ground, but anyone alleging that O’Keefe altered the audio to make it appear that ACORN employees said things they didn’t say is making demonstrably false statements. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/45 "2011-03-12T05:17:12Z")
He altered the audio. Learn how to read. Your boyfriend falsified the videos. He made it appear that people were saying things they weren’t saying. Get out of fucking la la land. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/46 "2011-03-12T05:21:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He falsified the audio, **Ibn**. If you want to quibble with my use of the word “dubbed,” knock yourself out. It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that he falsified it. That is not something Michael Moore does, or anyone esle in the mainstream media except for Fox News. If you wish to claim that water is not wet or the sky is red, you can, but claiming so does not make it so. You have repeatedly alleged that O’Keefe “falsified” the audio to make it appear that ACORN employees said things they didn’t say. You have yet, despite repeated requests to provide a single shred of evidence to prove this. As I already noted, ACORN itself concedes the audios weren’t “altered” or “falsified”. Here is the report from ACORN’s lawyer on the subject. [http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) Obviously, since you’re persisting in claiming something that is demonstrably false, you must have some piece of evidence that Scott Harshbarger, the former Massachusetts AG hired to clear ACORN, and his team failed to find. Please provide both a link and quotes from the link to show that O’Keefe altered the audio to make it appear that ACORN employees said something they didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/47 "2011-03-12T05:23:22Z")
The cite has already been shown. The little bitch faked the audio. He dubbed in new audio after the fact to make it look like ACORN employees were answering different questions thatn what they’d really been asked. Your loverboy is a liar and a fraud. Accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/48 "2011-03-12T05:24:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He altered the audio. Learn how to read. Your boyfriend falsified the videos. He made it appear that people were saying things they weren’t saying. Get out of fucking la la land. Why are you making homophobic remarks? I thought you were a progressive? Furthermore, as I noted there’s nothing in either report to support your assertion so please quote from a source that shows that O’Keefe altered the video to make it appear that ACORN employees said things they didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/49 "2011-03-12T05:26:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why are you making homophobic remarks? > > I thought you were a progressive? > > Furthermore, as I noted there’s nothing in either report to support your assertion so please quote from a source that shows that O’Keefe altered the video to make it appear that ACORN employees said things they didn’t say. I didn’t say anything homophobic. I think it’s cute that you have a little crush. Don’t get your hopes up, though. His type despises Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/50 "2011-03-12T05:36:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The cite has already been shown. The little bitch faked the audio. He dubbed in new audio after the fact to make it look like ACORN employees were answering different questions thatn what they’d really been asked. Your loverboy is a liar and a fraud. Accept it. Please quote me where in the “cite” it shows that O’Keefe “faked the audio”. If anyone wants they can look search the California AG’s report. The word audio is used seven times and it never says that the audio was “faked”. It merely notes that the videos presented to the general media were “edited”. The reason for this was that the interviews took around 45 minutes a piece so obviously no media outlet would play the full clip. However, Giles and O’Keefe during the controversy made the full videos available at [Biggovernment.com](http://Biggovernment.com). As noted, the full videos have been looked at by both the California AG and ACORN’s lawyer and neither one of them has made the claims you’re making. Sorry Dio, but you don’t have a leg to stand on. For those reading, Dio has chosen once again, rather than admitting to making a mistake and taking the defensible position that O’Keefe is a scumbag who was deliberately trying to make ACORN look as bad as possible to die on the hill defending the laughable assertion that O’Keefe “falsified” audio. Also, why do you keep making homophobic remarks at me? Do you have issues with gay people? If you’re trying to upset me, you’re far better hurling racial slurs at me. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/51 "2011-03-12T05:38:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He falsified the audio, **Ibn**. If you want to quibble with my use of the word “dubbed,” knock yourself out. It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that he falsified it. That is not something Michael Moore does, or anyone esle in the mainstream media except for Fox News. That’s not really a quibble. You lied and were called on in and now you’re changing your tune. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/52 "2011-03-12T05:42:16Z")
No I’m not. He did dub in new audio. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/53 "2011-03-12T05:42:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Difference between Okeefe and other news, they report it don’t create it. They are in theory without an agenda. Does anyone think Okeefe did not have one? Does anyone think Brietbart doesn’t have one? > These right wing hacks have nothing in common with the news. Agree 100%. What’s worth noting about the ACORN videos is that while both the California AG and the Harshbarger report make clear is that while several ACORN employees behaved inappropriately, no laws were broken by ACORN employees and while ACORN was guilty of poor management and training, they were guilty of malice. Similarly, the NPR videos reveal two NPR fundraisers saying nothing while the other man rants about Jews controlling the media, but all this really shows is that when you’re trying to get rich people to donate money to you, you don’t tell them they’re behaving like an asshole when they’re behaving like assholes. It’s sort of like how when I go to a car dealership to buy a car, if I start talking about how I hate black people, does anyone think that the salesman is going to look at me and say “get the fuck off my lot” or “you’re a racist pig”? No, he’s just going to either say nothing or nod in agreement. That’s what fundraisers and salesmen do. Anyone who doesn’t wouldn’t last in either profession. What I do find shocking is why the NPR executives didn’t do better research on the people they were meeting before agreeing to the meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/54 "2011-03-12T05:46:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thank you for the link. > > I’ve already read the former Massachusetts Attorney General’s report on the scandal, which was conducted after being hired by ACORN. > > [http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) > > Furthermore, I’m not a fan of O’Keefe nor do I think he or Michael Moore are journalists in the same way that the 60 Minutes people are. > > However, I was responding specifically to charges altered the audio to make it appear that people said things they didn’t say, which, as you are conceding is a completely baseless claim. > > The closest that happened was that during one interview, they had issues with the audio due to technical difficulties and that interview wasn’t one of the juicier ones(I.E. the Baltimore and DC interviews). Harshbarger doesn’t challenge the claim that they had technical difficulties so I’m not sure why you’re claiming they deliberately “cut the audio”. > > In fact, it’s worth noting that both the California AG’s report and the Harshbarger report(which was contracted by ACORN and therefore, if anything would go out of it’s way to protect ACORN) concluded that several ACORN employees behaved incredibly inappropriately and, as a result of their behavior, were terminated. > > Furthermore, Harshbarger concluded the interviews essentially occurred as they were presented with the only caveat being that promotional parts of the videos, where O’Keefe strutted around dressed up like a 70s pimp was misleading since O’Keefe was dressed far more conservatively in the offices, though Hannah Giles, was dressed the same. Also, in none of the interviews did O’Keefe explicitly claim to be Giles’ pimp, though that could very reasonably be inferred in some of the interviews. > > Frankly, I think the fact that O’Keefe didn’t go in there dressed up as a 70s pimp makes ACORN look worse. When I first saw the videos I thought, “Well duh, the whitest guy in the world comes in dressed up like Superfly claiming to be a pimp. Of course they obviously thought it was a gag and decided to play along.” > > Again, ACORN’s own attorney isn’t claiming they used fake footage or made it seem that something happened that didn’t so it’s wrong for anyone here to make such claims. You appear to be ignoring the substance of L.G. Butts’ claim: > [@](#): > > It is quite explicit on everything that O’Keefe did. I don’t find any evidence that he dubbed audio, but he spliced in different scenes, cut out audio, made it appear that things were said that were not, lied outrageously, and made everything look as damning as possible even in cases where there was nothing done wrong. The guy is a creep. He makes Michael Moore look like Walter Cronkite. He edited the tapes to make them completely misleading. Whether or not he used fake dubs is a minor point. The deliberate misleading to create elements that are not true is the key point. You’re working with a very minor technical point here. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/55 "2011-03-12T05:50:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No I’m not. He did dub in new audio. Please show the evidence for such a statement. What are you citing. It can’t be the California AG’s report or the report put forward by the ACORN’s lawyer. Here are both and neither makes such an assertion. [http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf](http://www.proskauer.com/files/uploads/report2.pdf) [http://ag.ca.gov/cms\_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888\_acorn\_report.pdf](http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1888_acorn_report.pdf) Please, I’ve repeatedly asked you politely to produce evidence for this and you have repeatedly refused to do so and instead hurled homophobic remarks at me. So once more, please produce a cite showing that O’Keefe “dubbed in new audio” to make it appear that ACORN employees said something that they didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/56 "2011-03-12T05:55:57Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > He edited the tapes to make them completely misleading. Whether or not he used fake dubs is a minor point. The deliberate misleading to create elements that are not true is the key point. You’re working with a very minor technical point here. Have you read the California AG’s report or the report put forth by ACORN’s lawyer, Scott Harshbarger? I think Butts misremembered them because neither suggest that ACORN employees were made to behave differently or say something differently than what they actually did or said. Furthermore, you’ll notice that Dio is rather specifically insisting that O’Keefe did deliberately use “fake dubs”. And yes, there is a massive difference between having a video that is misleading and one that contains fake audio dubs. Again, I’m not arguing that the videos weren’t misleading in that they made it appear that most of ACORN’s employees were willing to help a pimp and prostitute versus a few bad apples, but they were not fake. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/57 "2011-03-12T05:58:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agree 100%. > > What’s worth noting about the ACORN videos is that while both the California AG and the Harshbarger report make clear is that while several ACORN employees behaved inappropriately, no laws were broken by ACORN employees and while ACORN was guilty of poor management and training, they were guilty of malice. > > Similarly, the NPR videos reveal two NPR fundraisers saying nothing while the other man rants about Jews controlling the media, but all this really shows is that when you’re trying to get rich people to donate money to you, you don’t tell them they’re behaving like an asshole when they’re behaving like assholes. > > It’s sort of like how when I go to a car dealership to buy a car, if I start talking about how I hate black people, does anyone think that the salesman is going to look at me and say “get the fuck off my lot” or “you’re a racist pig”? No, he’s just going to either say nothing or nod in agreement. That’s what fundraisers and salesmen do. > > Anyone who doesn’t wouldn’t last in either profession. > > What I do find shocking is why the NPR executives didn’t do better research on the people they were meeting before agreeing to the meeting. They did enough to know to turn down the money., ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/58 "2011-03-12T06:31:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why are you making homophobic remarks? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, why do you keep making homophobic remarks at me? > > Do you have issues with gay people? Twice now you’ve accused **Dio** of making homophobic remarks. Where is your evidence for this? Or are you just prone to making baseless accusations against your debate opponents in an attempt to portray them as somehow morally corrupt? Do you think it’s easier to win a debate against someone that can be portrayed as morally corrupt? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/59 "2011-03-12T06:31:46Z")
[From Harshbarger’s report](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/acorn_report_finds_no_illegal_conduct.php) > [@](#): > > The videos that have been released appear to have been edited, in some cases substantially, including the insertion of a substitute voiceover for significant portions of Mr. O’Keefe’s and Ms. Giles’s comments, which makes it difficult to determine the questions to which ACORN employees are responding. A comparison of the publicly available transcripts to the released videos confirms that large portions of the original video have been omitted from the released versions. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/60 "2011-03-12T06:36:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Where is your evidence for this? Control-F for “loverboy”, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=4)