# What's the real difference between O'Keefe and other media? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309 "2011-03-11T16:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/121 "2011-03-12T22:11:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Where have I ever said I saw O’Keefe as being a journalist or part of a “Media organization”? > > He’s a political activist who uses rather unethical tactics to try and discredit people he doesn’t like. > > I think comparisons of him to Michael Moore are perfectly fair (though Moore is considerably cleverer) and I don’t think anyone, or at least no serious person, views Moore as a journalist as opposed to an activist who pretends to be a journalist/documentary filmmaker. Please, even the term “political activist” is a stretch with guys like O’Keefe. Once again, the other ACORN tape dispelled any ideas that there was any intention to look for the truth, he was looking for \*\*anything \*\*to discredit his target, no matter if it was not true. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/122 "2011-03-12T22:17:08Z")
**Ibn Warraq** , back in post #109 I asked for a cite for your claim that [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] The fact is there are massive numbers of people all over the world who identify themselves as Christians but who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/123 "2011-03-12T23:04:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please, even the term “political activist” is a stretch with guys like O’Keefe. > > Once again, the other ACORN tape dispelled any ideas that there was any intention to look for the truth, he was looking for \*\*anything \*\*to discredit his target, no matter if it was not true. What’s your point? That’s basically what I said and I don’t disagree with anything you said. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/124 "2011-03-12T23:05:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** , back in post #109 I asked for a cite for your claim that I can’t offer a cite, but I saw a survey in the 90’s that purported to indicate that the majority of American Christians did not belive in the divinity of Jesus. I don’t trust surveys in general, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I have seen other analyses about religious beliefs in Europe that support that as well. My personal experience also includes many people who _identify_ themselves as Christians, but do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/125 "2011-03-12T23:07:11Z")
It doesn’t seem to be particularly uncommon that a certain percent of Christians disbelieve in Jesus’ divinity. [ > [@](#): > > In a poll, he asked Canadians if they believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ. About seven in 10 - and more than eight in 10 active United Church members - said they did. ]([The Canadian Encyclopedia](http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0011456)) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/126 "2011-03-12T23:23:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wasn’t the “To Catch a Predator” was conducted by _Dateline NBC_. Now, you can argue that it’s not “news” if you want, but if so I think you’re falling into the no true Scotsman trap. I am not sure that if indeed it was done by the news qualifies it as news. The similarity is they both create the condition. Without their intervention there would be no crime at all. In Okeefes case, there were no crimes. He just edited film to create the illusion. It fired up enough rightys that it was not ignored like it should have been. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/127 "2011-03-13T00:00:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It doesn’t seem to be particularly uncommon that a certain percent of Christians disbelieve in Jesus’ divinity. > > [url=[The Canadian Encyclopedia](http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0011456)] This is a poll of canadians, not Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/128 "2011-03-13T00:07:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please provide evidence that Orthodox Jews will recognize Reform Jews(with gentile mothers) as Jews without making Orthodox conversions. No, you are the one making an assertion. Please provide evidence that Orthodox Jews do _not_ rexognize Reform Jews as ethic Jews. You are still confusing ethnicity with religion. > [@](#): > > Why are the Mandaeans and the Druze ethnic groups while Muslims are simply religious groups? Because those groups have an ethnic identity outside of religion. Muslims do not. > [@](#): > > Dio,you appear to think that Muslims are merely Christians who believe Muhammad was God’s last prophet. I don’t think this at all. Islam is religiously closer to Judaism than to Christianity. > [@](#): > > Yes, the Muslims of all those groups listed are as much from the same tribe as Yemeni Jews, Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, Persian Jews, and Russian Jews are members of the same tribe. tjhos Jewish groups have a shared genetic heritage. Those Muslims groups do not. They sim,ply share a religion. What does _ummat al-mu’minin_ mean in Arabic? Why won’t you answer that question? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/129 "2011-03-13T00:08:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a poll of canadians, not Christians. Er, no one said most Christians don’t believe the divinity of Jesus, just that there are self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. You denied that this was the case and have been proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/130 "2011-03-13T00:10:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er, no one said most Christians don’t believe the divinity of Jesus, just that there are self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. > > You denied that this was the case and have been proven wrong. No it hasn’t. This alleged poll says that 70% of _Canadians_ believe in the Divinity of Christ, not 70% of Christians. Canadians are not synonomous with Christians. Anyone who doesn’t believe in the divinity of Christ is not a Christian. That’s what the word means. It doesn’t mean anything else. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/131 "2011-03-13T00:21:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it hasn’t. This alleged poll says that 70% of _Canadians_ believe in the Divinity of Christ, not 70% of Christians. There were two sentences. You didn’t read past the first. This is… bad. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a poll of canadians, not Christians. Dio, it was two single sentences. You really refuse to read that much? Here, I’ll underline the relevant portion. > [@](#): > > In a poll, he asked Canadians if they believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ. About seven in 10 - and more than eight in 10 active United Church members - said they did. Rather obviously, active United Church members are Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/132 "2011-03-13T00:29:42Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So what makes O’Keefe different? Why do some people here want to dismiss his videos but don’t want to dismiss Ian Murphy’s recordings? The fact that he’s not the nicest person won’t wash here - the recordings are what they are. Meh, I thought the Ian Murphy recordings were amusing and not too surprising. I didn’t expect much more from Walker. I didn’t find them particularly damning though. But if this doesn’t make it crystal clear what a piece of crap O’Keefe is and how he is different, I don’t know what will: > [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > An investigation has concluded that the NPR tapes were highly edited to make things look much worse than they really were. > > > [@](#): > > > > There’s a lot more of this on The Blaze: eight sections of raw video with written commentary by a video producer from the website. She finds numerous instances of editing to make Schiller sound like he’s replying to completely different statements (a bemused reaction to something about restaurant reservations is made to look like a response to implementing sharia law worldwide), and she also finds sections where the audio has clearly been switched from another part of the video, as well as the complete removal of many instances of Schiller and his colleague praising either Republicans or the Fox News audience. > > [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/does-raw-video-of-npr-expose-reveal-questionable-editing-tactics/](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/does-raw-video-of-npr-expose-reveal-questionable-editing-tactics/) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/133 "2011-03-13T00:40:28Z")
The best media planners have to go to school for years, dabble in marketing and public relations, psychology, and all that stuff. Everything they do is analyzed and taken apart to best sell their product. Opinion makers must go to really good schools to become that dumb. And the major institutions employ hundreds to thousands of people. O’Keefe just winged it on his own, so the work was much more shoddy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/134 "2011-03-13T00:45:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There were two sentences. You didn’t read past the first. This is… bad. > > Dio, it was two single sentences. You really refuse to read that much? Here, I’ll underline the relevant portion. > > Rather obviously, active United Church members are Christians. They also aren’t a representative sample of Christians in Canada. They are members of one church with an anomalous pastor. The story also doesn’t say that those members of that church self-identify as Christians. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/135 "2011-03-13T00:48:50Z")
Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/136 "2011-03-13T01:34:55Z")
Wow what? You cited a poll of Canadians and tried to pass it off as a poll of Christians. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/137 "2011-03-13T01:41:29Z")
O’Keefe is just getting as many people to talk to him as possible. Then he tries to find something that can be twisted into damning his target. His aim is to destroy something, like ACORN. If you talk to enough people you can get someone in a bad mood of disgruntled enough to say something useful . If not, he could edit it to achieve his aims. That is not news. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/138 "2011-03-13T01:47:26Z")
Also, come on. The United Church of Canada? That’s a church based more on tea and cookies than actual religion. (How do you know a Unitarian lives in your neighbourhood? There’s a question mark burned on your lawn.) To say that’s a representative Christian group is to say that beer league softball is representative of competitive sports. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/139 "2011-03-13T01:48:35Z")
And it wouldn’t even work if there weren’t so many people willing to rationalize or dismiss or, when necessary, simply ignore what he’s doing simply because his efforts align with their own partisan preferences. But there are “so many people”. Even here on this board. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/140 "2011-03-13T02:13:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What’s your point? > > That’s basically what I said and I don’t disagree with anything you said. You posted before that Diogenes was wrong for saying that “ACORN employees answered questions they didn’t answer and said things they didn’t say.” I’m saying that condemning O’Keefe for that bit may be dubious if it was the only item coming from O’Keefe, but the other ACORN tape shows things that were not true at all and still they tried to pass it as news, indeed those were things that the employee said, but the context was missing. As the evidence shows that there were also changes made to the audio and editing in the first tape, it is a wonder why anyone is still defending O’Keffe even on that item. Specially when one takes into account all the other stunts that he tried to pull off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=8)