# What's the real difference between O'Keefe and other media? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309 "2011-03-11T16:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/141 "2011-03-13T20:18:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You didn’t answer my last question in my last post. What does _ummat al-mu’minin_ mean in Arabic? _Ummat al-mu’minin_. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/142 "2011-03-13T20:23:13Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Also, come on. The United Church of Canada? That’s a church based more on tea and cookies than actual religion. (How do you know a Unitarian lives in your neighbourhood? There’s a question mark burned on your lawn.) To say that’s a representative Christian group is to say that beer league softball is representative of competitive sports. Nobody is saying that self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus are all that representative of the Christian community at large, but just that they exist. Dio denied this and when presented evidence he decided to hand-wave it away. Similarly, Walter Isaacson, in his biography of Benjamin Franklin mentions that Franklin always identified himself as Christian and a Deist and that he doubted the divinity of Jesus. So no, it’s not common amongst Christians, but there are many self-identified Christians who hold such a view. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/143 "2011-03-13T20:38:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > _Ummat al-mu’minin_. Ha ha. What does it mean in English? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/144 "2011-03-13T20:44:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Nobody is saying that self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus are all that representative of the Christian community at large, but just that they exist. It hasn’t been shown that anyone who self-identifies as a Christian denies the divinity of Christ, but even if such a person exists, they aren’t Christians, by definition. It doesn’t matter how they self-identify. Their self-identification doesn’t change the definition. > [@](#): > > Dio denied this and when presented evidence he decided to hand-wave it away. I was shown no evdience for it. I was shown a poll of Canadians, not Christians. > [@](#): > > Similarly, Walter Isaacson, in his biography of Benjamin Franklin mentions that Franklin always identified himself as Christian and a Deist and that he doubted the divinity of Jesus. > > So no, it’s not common amongst Christians, but there are many self-identified Christians who hold such a view. You’re kind of moving the goal posts here. First you said that there are Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. Now you’re asaying there are “self-identified” Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. I’ve got ews for you, self-identification doesn’t make you a Christian. Belief in the ddvinity of Christ makes you a Christian. That’s what the word means. If I self-identify as a unicorn, that doesn’t prove that some unicorns are middle aged white guys living in Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/145 "2011-03-13T21:04:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It hasn’t been shown that anyone who self-identifies as a Christian denies the divinity of Christ, but even if such a person exists, they aren’t Christians, by definition. It doesn’t matter how they self-identify. Their self-identification doesn’t change the definition. > > I was shown no evdience for it. I was shown a poll of Canadians, not Christians. > > You’re kind of moving the goal posts here. First you said that there are Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. Now you’re asaying there are “self-identified” Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. I’ve got ews for you, self-identification doesn’t make you a Christian. Belief in the ddvinity of Christ makes you a Christian. That’s what the word means. If I self-identify as a unicorn, that doesn’t prove that some unicorns are middle aged white guys living in Minnesota. Well that’s a classic case of the no true Scotsman argument. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/146 "2011-03-13T21:21:38Z")
No, it’s simply citing a definition. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/147 "2011-03-13T21:38:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Nobody is saying that self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus are all that representative of the Christian community at large, but just that they exist. > > Dio denied this and when presented evidence he decided to hand-wave it away. > > Similarly, Walter Isaacson, in his biography of Benjamin Franklin mentions that Franklin always identified himself as Christian and a Deist and that he doubted the divinity of Jesus. > > So no, it’s not common amongst Christians, but there are many self-identified Christians who hold such a view. The point that I’m making is that it’s possible to belong to the United Church of Canada and not identify as a Christian, with zero contradiction. In some communities, it’s a bit like belonging to 4-H. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/148 "2011-03-13T23:35:44Z")
Technically I’m a member of a local Catholic church. My kids go to the school, My wife and kids go to mass there, and I occasionally go with them. I donate. I’m listed as a member. I’m a stone atheist, though, so belonging to a Christian church doesn’t mean you self-identify as a a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/149 "2011-03-14T02:33:28Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > The point that I’m making is that it’s possible to belong to the United Church of Canada and not identify as a Christian, with zero contradiction. In some communities, it’s a bit like belonging to 4-H. Eh… [ > [@](#): > > We believe in God: > who has created and is creating, > who has come in Jesus, > the Word made flesh, > to reconcile and make new, > who works in us and others > by the Spirit. ]([What We Believe | The United Church of Canada](http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/creed)) Now, while some folks may go to the UCC just to hang out, it serves as a pretty good cite that some Christians do indeed lack belief in Christ’s divinity. The default assumption isn’t that when people are active members of a church, that we then have to find out if they self-identify as Christians. At the point where the standard becomes “Sure they go to church and they’re members of a Christian church and they’re active in that Christian church, but have we asked all of them if they self-identify as Christians?” Well… Nor is a poll that shows the percentage of UUC members who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ really a poll only of “Canadians”. I’m not surprised that Dio didn’t read past the first sentence in a two sentence quote and has now adopted a position which he refuses to budge from… but seriously, blah. And no it’s not worth another 20 page Pit thread before Dio backs down a bit off his claims and admits that he grabbed on an indefensible overstatement. Now, nobody claimed that the UUC was representative of all Christians. But if 10-15% of their active members don’t believe that Jesus was divine, that means that there are roughly 30-45 thousand. I’m not sure how you consider something to be ‘not uncommon’, but tens of thousands would do it for me. And it is a belief that seems to crop up, especially in Christian groups that are in societies which are becoming increasingly secular. Now we can No-True-Scotsman until our fingers fall off, and demand that every person active in a particular Church first self-identify before we can talk about them, but, meh. [ > [@](#): > > The lecture is titled “Jesus: Galilean Sage or Supernatural Savior?” > > It’s the “or,” rather than an “and,” that causes some fuss. > > Most Christians believe Jesus was both human and divine. But Meyers told me, “We have to demote Jesus, strip away the supernatural that got layered on by the church and culminated in the creeds.” > > Meyers, 58, is a professor of philosophy at Oklahoma City University, and author of six books, most recently “Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus.” > > He is held in esteem by ministers within the United Church of Christ, to which Meyers was ordained in 1979. ]([http://www.gazette.com/articles/christianity-107816-return-revival.html](http://www.gazette.com/articles/christianity-107816-return-revival.html)) Yes, some Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus. I suppose it’s up to Christians to police their numbers and/or purge those who don’t hold the correct beliefs. But from the outside, people who go to Christian churches sure seem Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/150 "2011-03-14T02:45:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, some Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus. No they don’t, and can’t. The second they stop believeing that, they stop being Christians. Just because they go to a Christisn church doesn’t mean they self-identify as Christians, and even if they _were_ to to self-identify as Christian, they still wouldn’t be Christians because the word _by definition_ denotes a belief in the divinity of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/151 "2011-03-14T03:02:34Z")
So to sum up Dio’s arguments, “No Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus, because those that disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus aren’t Christian”. A fairly classic example of the No True Scotsman falacy. I have to say if Dio had been born elsewhere he’d have made a fantastic Ayatollah. He certainly loves to split hairs like one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/152 "2011-03-14T03:04:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So to sum up Dio’s arguments, “No Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus, because those that disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus aren’t Christian”. > > A fairly classic example of the No True Scotsman falacy. No, actually, it isn’t. You’re citing a fallacy fallaciously. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/153 "2011-03-14T03:20:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So to sum up Dio’s arguments Jake, China Town, yadda yadda. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/154 "2011-03-14T03:25:10Z")
What do you guys think the definition of “Christian” is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/155 "2011-03-14T04:10:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What do you guys think the definition of “Christian” is? Apparently, some believe that it is possible to be some sort of “atheist Christian”, which sounds kind of hinky to me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/156 "2011-03-14T04:27:08Z")
If I’m generous about it, I suppose it’s possible to believe that Jesus is the Messiah in the Jewish sense, or some other non-divine sense. That would at least be theistic, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/157 "2011-03-14T04:29:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What do you guys think the definition of “Christian” is? Somebody who’s a member of a Christian church, or someone who identifies himself as a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/158 "2011-03-14T04:33:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Somebody who’s a member of a Christian church, or someone who identifies himself as a Christian. You Can’t define a word by repeating the word. “Identifies as a Christian” is just begging the question, and simply being a member of a church is patently incorrect. As I said before, I am a member of a Christian church. Am I a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/159 "2011-03-14T04:46:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Apparently, some believe that it is possible to be some sort of “atheist Christian”, which sounds kind of hinky to me. Like I said, Christians are certainly welcome to police their ranks and purge whoever they don’t like claiming to be Christians. That’s all well and good. But from the outside, people who are active in Christian churches would seem to be Christian, even if their teachings are only that they should follow the teachings of Jesus and not that he was supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309/160 "2011-03-14T04:54:40Z")
Being active in a Christian church is not the definition of being a Christian. A lot of churches don’t require or necessarily care if their members are Christian, by the way. Atheist membership - even sometimes fairly active membership in Christian churches is more common than you may be aware. Once again, I am a member of a Christian church, and nobody who knows anything about me would call me a Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-difference-between-okeefe-and-other-media/574309.md?page=9)