# What's the real reason behind the Greek rioters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730 "2012-02-13T18:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/21 "2012-02-13T21:19:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe they could try to collect royalties from the rest of us for inventing civilization. > > Yeah, I know they didn’t technically do that, but I still laughed my ass off when I first heard Bill Maher say something along those lines. > > And I’m not buying that the Greek people had no hand in this and they are all victims. They voted in the politicians who set up their disastrous fiscal policies. They had some of the cushiest benefits in Europe, and now the chickens have come home to roost. Gosh, **John** , I had no idea of the depth of your expertise in this matter! Still don’t, come to think of it, so, if you’ve got a minute… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/22 "2012-02-13T21:21:04Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I am sure that we who sympathize with the Occupy movement appreciate your kindly condescension for our frailties. [/QUOTE] It was my pleasure, as always old boy! Anytime. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/23 "2012-02-13T21:27:35Z")
[quote=“CJJ, post:15, topic:612730”] [li]Across the board wage cuts in the private sector averaging 22%. This includes cutting the minimum wage[/li][/QUOTE] How, it there a government deal to cut _private sector_ wages by 22%? Or, does “private sector” mean something else in Greece? Is this some kind of Union/Government type “private sector” deal? ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/24 "2012-02-13T21:35:41Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > How, it there a government deal to cut _private sector_ wages by 22%? Or, does “private sector” mean something else in Greece? Is this some kind of Union/Government type “private sector” deal? New York Times: "In a highly political climate ahead of elections expected as early as April, the leaders agreed to a range of unpopular measures, including cutting the minimum wage on which all private-sector contracts are based by 22 percent. . . " So, they’re cutting the minimum wage by 22%. . . how many Greeks work for minimum wage? In the US, most average service workers make over the minimum wage. I’ve worked plenty of low-scale jobs and I’ve never worked for minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/25 "2012-02-13T21:48:35Z")
"including cutting the minimum wage **on which all private-sector contracts are based** by 22 percent. . . " Emphasis mine. May be in Greece, it’s standard for contracts to to go something like “Salary: 3.5 times minimum wage”. In that case, lowering minimum wages impacts quite a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/26 "2012-02-13T21:54:15Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > New York Times: > > "In a highly political climate ahead of elections expected as early as April, the leaders agreed to a range of unpopular measures, including cutting the minimum wage on which all private-sector contracts are based by 22 percent. . . " > > So, they’re cutting the minimum wage by 22%. . . how many Greeks work for minimum wage? In the US, most average service workers make over the minimum wage. I’ve worked plenty of low-scale jobs and I’ve never worked for minimum wage. No, but in Greece wages for many private sector jobs are apparently indexed to the minimum wage. And it is not unique to Greece. I actually work for a company in the US where our union workers all get raises when the minimum wage goes up. It’s called “decompression” and ensures that there is some differential between the lowest paid worker and the workers with some seniority, higher paid job classification, etc. This happens even if no employees are actually at the minimum wage before or after the increase. They don’t get a penny-for-penny increase exactly, but a good part of the increase does go to all the workers under the contracts. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/27 "2012-02-13T22:05:03Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > New York Times: > > "In a highly political climate ahead of elections expected as early as April, the leaders agreed to a range of unpopular measures, including cutting the minimum wage on which all private-sector contracts are based by 22 percent. . . " > > So, they’re cutting the minimum wage by 22%. . . how many Greeks work for minimum wage? In the US, most average service workers make over the minimum wage. I’ve worked plenty of low-scale jobs and I’ve never worked for minimum wage. Because [collective bargaining in Greece](http://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Greece/Collective-Bargaining) takes place at the national, industrial, and specific-company levels, the minimum wage set in the national phase is often used as an index for other collective bargaining agreements at the industrial and company level (agreements which are re-negotiated more frequently than the national). ETA: What **TheMightyAtlas** said ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/28 "2012-02-13T22:22:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Nope…but it will let people vent, and also let folks circle around and convince each other that it’s really not THEIR fault. It was the other guys fault (the banks, the other members in the EU, the Turks (these ARE Greeks after all)). It’s a very human reaction, something akin to our own (in the US) Occupy Movement. Yeah, they’re just whiners. Who wouldn’t see the wisdom in handing your country over to unelected technocrats who’s policies have just made the problem worse? Or appeasing rich foreigners who gasp and faint at the possibility that a small uptick in inflation will diminish their profits? Greece bears a good bit of the blame for getting into this situation, but the solution is wholly biased in favor of outsiders–and this after Greeks have already endured two years of an austerity medicine that is killing the patient. Greece should default, quit the Euro and inflate their currency; it worked for Argentina and Iceland… ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/29 "2012-02-13T22:23:17Z")
Apart from anything else, 150,000 public jobs have to go in 2 years - it’s just too high a price to pay to remain in the new German Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/30 "2012-02-13T22:44:54Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Yep. What I think’s perhaps a bit unique about the Greek situation, though, is that while the banks and government certainly screwed the pooch, the near universal tax evasion and financial malfeasance perpetrated by the Greek population in general means that their hands are a bit dirtier in this case than they’d like to think. Indeed. Always be wary of Greeks sharing grifts. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/31 "2012-02-13T23:00:50Z")
> [@CJJ\*](#): > > Greece should default, quit the Euro and inflate their currency; it worked for Argentina and Iceland… How did it work for Argentina? Inflation ran at 20%, Argentinian government assets were regularly seized by foreign bondholders (at one point the Swiss Supreme Court had to step in to stop the Argentinian central bank’s buildings in Switzerland from being seized), crime increased massively, the government tried instituting price controls to rein in the runaway prices causing mass shortages of goods, and the Argentinians have still not been able to return to the bond markets a decade after they defaulted. If Greece defaults then they are immediately kicked out of the Euro, and the EU along with it. Whatever exports they have now have no market. The second they reintroduce the Drachma there’s going to be a bloodbath. Food and fuel prices are going to go through the roof. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/32 "2012-02-13T23:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] Yeah, they’re just whiners. Who wouldn’t see the wisdom in handing your country over to unelected technocrats who’s policies have just made the problem worse? Or appeasing rich foreigners who gasp and faint at the possibility that a small uptick in inflation will diminish their profits? [/QUOTE] Did I mention that they were ‘whiners’? I don’t see anything about that in what I wrote there, so I’m unsure who you are agreeing with. As for the rest, it’s a pretty interesting spin on what’s going on, and sort of makes the point about reality verse perception. > [@](#): > > Greece bears a good bit of the blame for getting into this situation, but the solution is wholly biased in favor of outsiders–and this after Greeks have already endured two years of an austerity medicine that is killing the patient. Greece should default, quit the Euro and inflate their currency; it worked for Argentina and Iceland… _shrug_ It’s biased in favor of reality. They are pretty much at the end of their tether wrt solvency, and they can’t borrow more. It sucks that they have had 2 years of austerity so far, and that there is no end in sight. I mean that…it DOES suck. Sadly, when you are broke and can’t borrow any more, you are broke and can’t borrow any more. You either have to figure out some way to generate new capital, or you need to cut back. I don’t see Greece being able to generate new revenue streams (do you?), so cutting back is pretty much their only viable option. You can’t just wish the problems away, and they can’t just bull through them by borrowing more to keep things going. Reality sucks. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/33 "2012-02-13T23:13:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, how did banks “screw over” Greece? By loaning them money? I guess the banks that loaned money to Greece expected that whatever happened, Germany would be there to bail them out, and therefore loans to Greece were as safe as loans to Germany. And so Greece accumulated truly stupendous levels of debt, which allowed Greek citizens to have low taxes while enjoying relatively high levels of government services. > > Except of course that loaning money to Greece isn’t the same as loaning money to Germany. Nobody screwed over Greece other than the Greeks. 6 out of 10 Greeks were tax invading, the black economy is 27% of the size of the visible economy, retirement ages were ridiculous with public servants retiring after having worked for a few decades, minimum wages even after the cuts announced this week are still higher than in Spain, the elected Greek government falsified their accounts to gain entry into the Euro and then went on a massive spending spree, there’s still a ridiculous level of militarisation in South Eastern Europe due to the bizarre rivalry that they have with Turkey, unions are out of control with unions preventing the government from collecting more tax revenue by simply refusing to implement required changes, and so on. In short public spending was way too high, tax receipts were not coming in, and all this in a country that doesn’t really produce much of anything other than sunshine and beaches. Something had to snap at somepoint. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/34 "2012-02-13T23:34:32Z")
I wouldn’t call the rivalry between the Greece and Turkey “bizarre”; after all, the Greeks and the Turks have been enemies since the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. Old countries have longer memories. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/35 "2012-02-13T23:39:50Z")
They’re both ostensibly allied as members of NATO, joining in the same year, and have been for 60 years. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/36 "2012-02-13T23:41:41Z")
Exactly! What’s 60 years compared to 10 centuries of hatred? As far as they’re concerned, all they’ve done is take a brief pause in the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/37 "2012-02-13T23:42:59Z")
But at the same time, Greek taxes were often quite onerous, such that people frequently needed to evade them just to get by. Meanwhile the countries regulations were so tight they choked off whole industries (I recall some private individual who needed 14 years to get approval to bottle tea, because he also operated a brewery.) That said, I can sympathize with most of the parties in this transaction. The EU was a terrible idea, and a lot of people are going to get hurt off of it. AT this point, however, there’s no real solution other than to take the pain. That’s coming no matterwhat political decisions are made. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/38 "2012-02-13T23:45:41Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > I think alot of greeks are angry that they have to suffer for mistakes they have had no hand in. I think the consensus would be that they got what they voted for and it bit them in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/39 "2012-02-13T23:51:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That said, I can sympathize with most of the parties in this transaction. The EU was a terrible idea, and a lot of people are going to get hurt off of it. AT this point, however, there’s no real solution other than to take the pain. That’s coming no matterwhat political decisions are made. The EU isn’t a terrible idea. Tethering widely divergent economies in Europe under a single currency was a terrible idea, and will impoverish more Europeans than anything since the Second World War. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > But at the same time, Greek taxes were often quite onerous, such that people frequently needed to evade them just to get by. What came first? The tax evasion or the onerous taxes? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/40 "2012-02-13T23:54:53Z")
[QUOTE=Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party] What came first? The tax evasion or the onerous taxes? [/QUOTE] Tax evasion is a long and honored tradition in Greece, but it’s a good question. I think they go hand in hand…there are onerous taxes, so folks try and evade them, so taxes have to be increased because of shortfalls, which means folks evade all the harder…rinse and repeat. It’s probably a chicken and egg scenario in this case. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730.md?page=3)