# What's the real reason behind the Greek rioters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730 "2012-02-13T18:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/121 "2012-02-15T23:23:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > … if someone drives up in a large wooden badger… We don’t need no _steeeenking_ badgers! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/122 "2012-02-15T23:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Is this the sort of thing you were craving, Big Guy? There’s simply oodles more. Or you could google Greece Tax evasion, there’s probably a ton of stuff there about how Greece’s tax evasion problem is the fault of scruffy protesters. I’m just hiding it. [/QUOTE] Is straw on sale this week or something? Again, do you have any quotes from me actually saying that Greece’s tax problem is solely, partially or anything-y about ‘scruffy protesters’? Do you know what ‘systemic’ means? No bullshit, straight up here…do you understand anything that I’ve said in this thread? Because the evidence seems to indicate that you are just running a rhetorical tape recorder while seemingly talking to me about stuff I haven’t said. -XT ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/123 "2012-02-16T01:46:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [Subscribe to read](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b74b3302-2678-11e1-9ed3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1mUlcn3N7) > > Is this the sort of thing you were craving, Big Guy? There’s simply _oodles_ more. Or you could google Greece Tax evasion, there’s probably a ton of stuff there about how Greece’s tax evasion problem is the fault of scruffy protesters. I’m just hiding it. The tax evasion problem in Greece wasn’t the fault of the protesters. It was the fault of everyone in the entire society, from top to bottom. Nobody was paying their fare share of taxes. The tax collectors were totally corrupt. Everyone knew they were corrupt, so the taxpayers had no incentive to pay their taxes. Everyone knew that everyone else was cheating on their taxes, so that further disincentivized them from paying their taxes. Nobody, from the lowliest shopkeeper to the biggest billionaire, was paying his taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/124 "2012-02-16T02:24:16Z")
Greeks are rioting for the same reason Americans ought to be rioting: they’re getting royally fucked by their class overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/125 "2012-02-16T07:53:56Z")
I’m not so sure. Read this article: [Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds | Vanity Fair](http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010#) The article may not be as well rounded as it purports to be, but I’m just not seeing any signs at all of overlord-fucking. The largesse in previous years was distributed very liberally to all classes (no doubt to buy votes) and the optional nature of the tax system appears to have left only the salaried middle class on the hook. No doubt this has royally fucked up the country and this is reflected in the anger that has triggered the riots but I’m not seeing evidence the class overlords are the key problem. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/126 "2012-02-16T10:14:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Evading income taxes appears to be a national pass time. It is (and not just taxes but anything including bus fares). And they had a welfare culture that was outrageously generous, all funded on the German Euro in effect. But the fact remains that the richer have more taxes to evade and workers whose tax is deducted at source have both less tax to evade and less opportunity to do so. And the fact also remains that the current deteriorating Greek economy offers no hope of growth and no hope for people plunged into such an unbearable penury that families are abandoning children they can’t feed in Town Halls. There’s no easy answer but something has to give. People will not sit and suffer silently. If there is not an orderly default I expect a military coup to enforce ‘austerity’ for the ‘greater good’. They are certainly [well-equipped](http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1066121--arms-dealers-and-loan-peddlers-took-down-greece). > [@](#): > > Over the last decade, Greece has been the largest importer of conventional military hardware in the European Union. Greek military spending as a percentage of GDP is more than any other EU member and tops even nations such as Pakistan, which is engaged in a variety of ongoing conflicts. > > Greece now has more than 1,200 battle tanks, 1,700 armoured personnel carriers, 300 fighter jets (including 156 F-16s), eight submarines and more than 40 frigates, gunboats and miscellaneous missile carriers. The bloated Greek military now has an air force similar in size to Germany’s — a front-line member of NATO with an economy 10 times larger than Greece and eight times as many people. > [@](#): > > While the EU has repeatedly criticized Greece for its lack of fiscal restraint, some of the loudest voices, including Germany and France, have profited massively by loading up the sagging Greek economy with billions of dollars in their military exports. These purchases by Greece fully accounted for 15 per cent of German arms sales between 2006 and 2010. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/127 "2012-02-16T14:04:00Z")
I can’t believe the Greek people are going to accept Germans, Dutch and various other nationals actually in Ministeries of State supervising where the money goes. ‘Austerity’ is shorthand for ‘we want the capital back and the interest on the loans and, yep, the working class can bear pretty much the entire burden - and btw, we also want you to stay in the euro to keep it’s value down and our exports cheaper’. tbh, I can’t believe any of this. Burn the bloody Parliament down for goodness sake. This is a complete nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Vicullum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6de8d8/32.png) [@Vicullum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicullum)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/128 "2012-02-16T14:59:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So what exactly do those who sympathize with the Greeks suggest? Deploy their phalanxes and cavalry on a lengthy campaign to plunder the riches of Persia. It’s worked for them in the past! ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/129 "2012-02-16T15:23:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So what exactly do those who sympathize with the Greeks suggest? How about fiscal policies that help the Greeks fix/grow their economy? Austerity has been imposed basically to better guarantee the ability of Greece to pay off debtors now (this is the reason why, for example, the EU requested quick privatization of several government assets). What if, say, some of the bailout were spend on modernizing Greece, or setting up price incentives for their shipping industry? In reverse, what if Germany eased up on its domestic policies such that it encouraged imports from weaker members of the Euro-zone? Let me be clear: Getting the debt repaid quickly and growing the Greek economy are not necessarily mutually exclusive. The problem is no European leader outside of Greece is talking about the latter; the entire policy has been put in place to appease German bankers, despite the hard evidence which shows that it is failing the Greek people. Is this a European union, or a Northern Europe First union? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/130 "2012-02-16T15:39:21Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] I’m not so sure. Read this article: [http://www.vanityfair.com/business/f](http://www.vanityfair.com/business/f)…-bonds-201010# [/QUOTE] That’s an interesting article. Best line from it was this: > [@](#): > > In Greece the banks didn’t sink the country. The country sank the banks. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/131 "2012-02-16T15:48:59Z")
An orderly, supported default. Defaulting is inevitable and no point throwing good money after bad. It’s easier to get back on your feet without a crushing debt burden. Would require Greece to collectively roll up its sleeves and slough off the inbred culture of tax evasion though. [What might it look like?](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14915333) > [@](#): > > An orderly default however, involves the mass transfer of funds from north Europe to Greece. If we are serious about the danger of a Lehman style event - which wiped $32tn off a global stock market worth $65tn - then the entire euro 210bn does not look that big, and it will not cost the whole amount. > > To avoid it just being a sticking plaster it would have to come with large amounts of fiscal transfer, as suggested on 21 July, in the form a quasi-Marshall Plan (since eurobonds are off the agenda due to the German court ruling). > > However, once Greece goes, there is a danger of three kinds of contagion - to other countries (Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Spain in that order, I think); to the banks (starting with Dexia and the eight Greek and Cypriot banks); and via the CDS market to the US and UK financial system, including the hedge funds - whose bets we do not have the luxury of understanding. I quite like this [Greek Default Watch Blog](http://www.greekdefaultwatch.com/) summary > [@](#): > > There are two Greeces out there, and the battle is on about which Greece is going to prevail. > > One Greece is laid back and relaxed. It is not particularly ambitious, and it dreams of a job that pays well but demands little. It is a Greece that wants to eat well, drink well and live well – so long as it can do this without having to work hard. It is content and not at all shamed to work two or three hours a day and get paid a full day’s work. It sees nothing wrong with evading taxes, crossing a red light, or throwing trash onto the ground. It treats laws as guidelines – follow them when convenient, ignore them when not. > [@](#): > > The other Greece is hungry and anxious. It is ambitious, and wants to succeed and do big things. > > It is proud of its history but wants to make its own mark in the world. It is a Greece that can win championships and that can host the Olympics. It is confident, intelligent and highly educated. > > It has studied or teaches at the world’s premier universities. It conducts research at world-class labs, staffs the world’s top companies, and writes award-winning music and films. It is a Greece that can compete in cut-throat businesses like shipping – and come out on top. > > It is an entrepreneurial Greece, one that will look for the tiniest opening to profits. It is liberal, tolerant, and commonsensical. It has real worries and real concerns and it has no time for fake battles and illusory struggles. > > It wants to get things done. And yet it sees that its future is held hostage, that there too many shackles that hold it back. It is a Greece whose one hope and demand from life is to be given the opportunity to succeed. > > Bailout or no bailout, default or no default, the Greek people have to make up their minds. Which Greece do you want to live in? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/132 "2012-02-16T15:58:40Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I can’t believe the Greek people are going to accept Germans, Dutch and various other nationals actually in Ministeries of State supervising where the money goes. > > ‘Austerity’ is shorthand for ‘we want the capital back and the interest on the loans and, yep, the working class can bear pretty much the entire burden - and btw, we also want you to stay in the euro to keep it’s value down and our exports cheaper’. > > tbh, I can’t believe any of this. Burn the bloody Parliament down for goodness sake. This is a complete nonsense. No. The Germans (or whoever) don’t care who, in Greece, pays the debt. If the Greek government could pay off its debt by collecting back taxes from rich people, no one would protest. But apparently they can’t or won’t. It’s not up to the creditors to retroactively fix the debtors tax collection system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/133 "2012-02-16T15:58:55Z")
They should follow our example, and unleash the creative power of their financial and investment services, which has worked so well for us. Well, some of us. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/134 "2012-02-16T16:00:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. The Germans (or whoever) don’t care who, in Greece, pays the debt. If the Greek government could pay off its debt by collecting back taxes from rich people, no one would protest. But apparently they can’t or won’t. It’s not up to the creditors to retroactively fix the debtors tax collection system. Strictly a WAG, but I would guess the money of the rich isn’t even in Greece where the gov can get their hands on it. Its probably here, we borrowed it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/135 "2012-02-16T16:01:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They should follow our example, and unleash the creative power of their financial and investment services, which has worked so well for us. Well, some of us. If I were a Chinese Head Honcho type I’d be looking to swoop in and pick up a european satrap for chump change. And yes - the rich Greeks have already squirelled their euro’s abroad just in case. On a personal, rational basis they’d be fools not to. [Greek Capital Flight](http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief-cover/1072811-bild-reveals-200-billion-greek-capital-flight) > [@](#): > > Unsparing in its criticism of Greece, Bild launches another broadside against its favourite target: “Greeks stash 200 billion euros in Swiss bank accounts!” headlines the Berlin tabloid, whose influence on the Chancellorship is an open secret. "While Europe struggles to help Greece with multi-billion euro bailout plans, more and more Greeks are transferring their money out of the country” to avoid the consequences of a crash in the national economy, announces Bild. “Stop the capital flight!” insists the tabloid’s editorial, which lambasts the Greek elite for refusing to introduce a tax on money transfers or penalties for tax evasion. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/136 "2012-02-16T16:09:05Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Strictly a WAG, but I would guess the money of the rich isn’t even in Greece where the gov can get their hands on it. Its probably here, we borrowed it. [/QUOTE] According to Princhester link above (it’s a good article if you haven’t read it yet) they didn’t invest it here (if by your statement of ‘we borrowed it’ you meant the US). As to your overall point, I agree with tagos…they would be fools if they didn’t have their money diversified outside of Greece at this point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/137 "2012-02-16T16:12:32Z")
Well, now, lets be fair here and not reflexively blame the well-to-do. How much of that money is in the form of food stamps? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/138 "2012-02-16T16:18:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > According to Princhester link above (it’s a good article if you haven’t read it yet) they didn’t invest it here (if by your statement of ‘we borrowed it’ you meant the US). As to your overall point, I agree with tagos…they would be fools if they didn’t have their money diversified outside of Greece at this point. > > -XT I don’t approve but it was inevitable. hopefully the money will be tracked down. Meanwhile it’s the poor suckers with no wealth who are left behind to pick up the tab. No wonder they are getting a mite fractious. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/139 "2012-02-16T16:20:07Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] I don’t approve but it was inevitable. hopefully the money will be tracked down. Meanwhile it’s the poor suckers with no wealth who are left behind to pick up the tab. No wonder they are getting a mite fractious. [/QUOTE] Contrary to popular belief, I don’t approve either…it’s freaking stupid for the country as a whole, not to mention to the countries trying to bail Greece out. But it’s both inevitable and even logical, if you are thinking in terms of ever person for themselves. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730/140 "2012-02-16T16:21:47Z")
Quote: The other Greece is hungry and anxious. It is ambitious, and wants to succeed and do big things. It is proud of its history but wants to make its own mark in the world. It is a Greece that can win championships and that can host the Olympics. It is confident, intelligent and highly educated. It has studied or teaches at the world’s premier universities. It conducts research at world-class labs, staffs the world’s top companies, and writes award-winning music and films. It is a Greece that can compete in cut-throat businesses like shipping – and come out on top. It is an entrepreneurial Greece, one that will look for the tiniest opening to profits. It is liberal, tolerant, and commonsensical. It has real worries and real concerns and it has no time for fake battles and illusory struggles. It wants to get things done. And yet it sees that its future is held hostage, that there too many shackles that hold it back. It is a Greece whose one hope and demand from life is to be given the opportunity to succeed. Bailout or no bailout, default or no default, the Greek people have to make up their minds. Which Greece do you want to live in? Interesting-here in the USA, the Greek-Americans are go-getters-they start businesses and work hard. The NYTimes had an article last year, about a Greek entrepreneur. He decided to get into the beer business, and invested over $8 million of his money. He was almost run out of business-his delivery trucks were vandalized, he was harassed by government inspectors, he was fought by bureaucrats. Greece needs major reforms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-behind-the-greek-rioters/612730.md?page=8)