# What's the real reason iron weapons replaced bronze weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276 "2002-09-13T13:40:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/41 "2012-11-19T00:44:36Z")
From the Illiad, bronze made tough weapons and shields while steel made good slicers (I liked the way Homer described everything down to slicing roast beef.) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/42 "2012-11-19T03:08:29Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > There is also [bog iron.](http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/bog_iron.htm) Pretty cool, esp. the fact that it’s a renewable resource! That is interesting, but the article makes it clear that “bog iron” a form or iron ore. I am pretty sure that, except in relatively recent meteorites (and only a small proportion of meteorites, at that) metallic iron is not found naturally on Earth. > [@the\_diego](#): > > From the Illiad, bronze made tough weapons and shields while steel made good slicers (I liked the way Homer described everything down to slicing roast beef.) Iron in the Iliad! Really? Do you have a specific cite to that? I would guess, anyway, that if there is a mention or iron, it is a late interpolation. As I understand it, the iron age had indeed arrived in Greece by the time the Iliad (and Odyssey) were written down, but the poems probably existed in oral for for centuries before that, and I do not think the Greeks had iron at the time of the events described. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/43 "2012-11-19T03:59:15Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Iron in the Iliad! Really? Do you have a specific cite to that? > > I would guess, anyway, that if there is a mention or iron, it is a late interpolation. As I understand it, the iron age had indeed arrived in Greece by the time the Iliad (and Odyssey) were written down, but the poems probably existed in oral for for centuries before that, and I do not think the Greeks had iron at the time of the events described. Here’s an article from the Bulletin of Historical Chemistry describing all the references to iron in Homer, and what they tell us about the status when they were written.. > **[v30-1%20p23-29.pdf](https://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v30-1/v30-1%20p23-29.pdf)** > > 92.22 KB ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/44 "2012-11-19T12:44:16Z")
OK, that s interesting. It argues that the iron references go back to before the poem was written down, but, so far as I can see, they still might well have been put in quite late in the period of oral transmission, still long after the actual events described. You have several centuries of “Greek dark age” there, during which Greece is transitioning from bronze to iron. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/45 "2012-11-19T13:39:53Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I am not a historian and I can be wrong here but I doubt that they discovered making iron and forging it at the same time. I would imagine that the initial centuries of Iron saw it **cast** into shapes and then someone accidently discovered forging or adding alloys to it or removing residual carbon. No, this is wrong. The first smelted iron was indeed [bloomery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery) iron, that required manual working to yield [wrought iron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron). Casting came [later](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron#History) - relatively early in China and much, much later in the West. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/46 "2012-11-19T16:39:42Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > There is also [bog iron.](http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/bog_iron.htm) Pretty cool, esp. the fact that it’s a renewable resource! wow never heard of that. great link too..thanks ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/47 "2012-11-19T16:42:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, this is wrong. The first smelted iron was indeed [bloomery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery) iron, that required manual working to yield [wrought iron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron). Casting came [later](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron#History) - relatively early in China and much, much later in the West. Yes from what i see Bloomery iron comes out as a craggy blob and is not flowed out of the furnace like latter iron. It must be hot worked to get it in any sort of useable form by hammering.. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/48 "2012-11-19T16:43:35Z")
So if meteorites are the only form of naturally occurring iron, could they have had any impact on the development of smelting iron ore? Would magnetite, for instance, have seemed similar enough to meteorite iron to get someone thinking that iron could be formed from it? > [@toadspittle](#): > > There is also [bog iron.](http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/bog_iron.htm) Pretty cool, esp. the fact that it’s a renewable resource! I wonder if burning peat with a bellows as part of the bronze making process could have accidently produced some usable iron. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/49 "2012-11-19T17:38:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So if meteorites are the only form of naturally occurring iron, could they have had any impact on the development of smelting iron ore? Would magnetite, for instance, have seemed similar enough to meteorite iron to get someone thinking that iron could be formed from it?I wonder if burning peat with a bellows as part of the bronze making process could have accidently produced some usable iron. Personally, I favour the “pottery kiln mistake” hypothesis for the discovery of iron smelting, given that we’ve been using [one form](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre) of iron ore as a decorative pigment about as long as we’ve been human (if not longer.) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/50 "2012-11-19T18:12:04Z")
I recall an article, Scientiifc American, I think, from about 20 or 30 years ago. It described the analysis of trace impurities to show that gold, silver and bronze were sourced all over europe and traded all over the mediterranean. Some bronze (tin) came from Britain and northern Russia, IIRC. The trading networks were incredibly long distances. But then again, we traded silk and spices half-way around the world by foot 1000 years ago. One interpretation of the Odessy I saw suggested that Odessius decided to go on a trading trip to get some tin from Britain because the Trojan War turned out to be a dud profit-wise. (there’s a bit in the Odessy that in one location the daytime was twice as long, and that if he didn’t need sleep a man could do the work of two.) IIRC the key to ironwork is that it requires bellows or something similar, a simple fire will not make the iron hot enough. I assume someone eventually figuredout the more they worked it, the better it got…? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/51 "2012-11-19T18:53:44Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I assume someone eventually figuredout the more they worked it, the better it got…? Probably through recyling. You take a bunch of bent, broken or rusted doohickeys, melt and hammer then together and try to hammer out a new form. Hey wait, that made the iron so much stronger! ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/52 "2012-11-19T19:29:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Here’s an article from the Bulletin of Historical Chemistry describing all the references to iron in Homer, and what they tell us about the status when they were written.. > > [http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mainzv/HIST/bulletin\_open\_access/v30-1/v30-1%20p23-29.pdf](http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mainzv/HIST/bulletin_open_access/v30-1/v30-1%20p23-29.pdf) Thanks for the link. That’s just a wonderful piece of writing. Love the wordplay in the opening paragraph: > [@](#): > > …I believe the texts distinguish three types of > iron: bloom iron, wrought iron, and steel, despite the > fact that most translations simply use the English word > “iron” for all three, and thus render anemic both our > appreciation for ancient Greek culture and the poetic > richness of the texts themselves. This paper is an attempt to fortify both. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/53 "2012-11-19T22:39:39Z")
Interesting…the Vikings made bog iron in L’anse Au Meadow, ca. 1150 AD. The next attempt at smelting iron in the New World was the Saugus (MA) ironworks, ca. 1690 -apparently, it made more lawsuits than iron (CF Governor Bradford of MA). ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/54 "2012-11-19T23:36:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Amazingly - shockingly - I did in fact know this as the thread was over a decade old. > > I still refuse to _believe_ it, however, because I hate the English. What have the English got to do with it? At that time our forefathers were presumably wearing liederhosen, drinking lager and not practising penalty kicks… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/55 "2012-11-20T00:54:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Personally, I favour the “pottery kiln mistake” hypothesis for the discovery of iron smelting, given that we’ve been using [one form](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre) of iron ore as a decorative pigment about as long as we’ve been human (if not longer.) That does sound likely. Someone may have mixed a clay with a lot or iron ore and something else that acts as a flux. > [@Chimera](#): > > Probably through recyling. You take a bunch of bent, broken or rusted doohickeys, melt and hammer then together and try to hammer out a new form. Hey wait, that made the iron so much stronger! That’s a function meteorites may have served. They may have already known of this by the time iron could be smelted somehow. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/56 "2012-11-20T11:03:08Z")
An additional advantage of iron weapons which I don’t think anyone has touched on yet is maintenance. I remember seeing a test of a bronze sword vs. an iron sword and from a functional point of view there was really no difference but the way they took damage was very different. Bronze swords chip and actually lose material whereas iron swords tend to deform rather than chip. Now at the end of your battle you can have your black smith reforge your iron sword and make it pretty much as good as new. With the bronze sword your options are somewhat limited. You might be able to grind out chips but doing that you will be constantly weakening the sword. So I would imagine overall you could keep iron weapons in operation for far longer than bronze weapons because they are far easier to repair. Maintenance is probably just one factor among many though for the change to Iron as has already been covered in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/57 "2012-11-20T13:27:50Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I assume someone eventually figuredout the more they worked it, the better it got…? > [@Chimera](#): > > Probably through recyling. You take a bunch of bent, broken or rusted doohickeys, melt and hammer then together and try to hammer out a new form. Hey wait, that made the iron so much stronger! Or another interesting possibility is that it could have been discovered by _apprentices_, who got better iron than their teachers, because they had to re-work the piece they were making due to repeated screw-ups. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/58 "2012-11-20T14:03:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s a function meteorites may have served. They may have already known of this by the time iron could be smelted somehow. I very much doubt it. Meteoric iron must always have been _extremely_ rare. There is no way that knowledge derived from something only found, somewhere in the world, every few lifetimes (at best) would survive in a preliterate culture. Anyway, how would they even know that it was the same stuff as what they were getting out of their smelters? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/59 "2012-11-20T14:12:02Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > In his book **Guns, Germs and Steel** , Jared Diamond talks about Pizarro with a force of 169 defeating the Inca leader, Atahuallpa, with an army of 80,000. Mr. Diamond seems to think that superiority in weapons will win the day. Actually, he points out that fear was probably the main element, along with lack of leadership. The Incas had never seen horses or heard guns firing. The killing power of the weapons alone would never have carried the day. Oh crap, I got necroed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/60 "2012-11-20T15:55:35Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I very much doubt it. Meteoric iron must always have been _extremely_ rare. There is no way that knowledge derived from something only found, somewhere in the world, every few lifetimes (at best) would survive in a preliterate culture. > > Anyway, how would they even know that it was the same stuff as what they were getting out of their smelters? Well actually I don’t know. I’m trying to figure out what was meant in something I read long ago about natural occurring iron being used before iron was smelted. Either I misinterpretted it, or it seems to have been wrong. If there’s no naturally occurring ore that doesn’t require smelting, and unless meteorites were more abundant than we know, it doesn’t make much sense. Meterorites apparently are a nickel-iron mix as well, which probably produces a shinier metal than smelted iron and may resemble steel in being more workable. It sounds like at best they could have offered someone the idea that there are other metals out there beside tin and copper. As far as working iron, it seems likely that it wasn’t hard to figure out anyway. Iron would have been smelted initially, not melted for casting, which would produce a lot of irregular bits of metal or big spongy lumps that had be worked to get anything useful at all. It probably wasn’t that hard to figure out that more working produced better metal. More important than working would have been figuring out what ores to use and how to prepare the ores. As I mentioned above, the accidental pottery kiln source sounds more likely than a lot of explanations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276.md?page=4)