# What's the real reason iron weapons replaced bronze weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276 "2002-09-13T13:40:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/81 "2015-03-04T22:31:13Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > Not necessarily. It could be the case that a number of stone age civilizations were capable of short-distance trade, and a number of these civilizations were spread over a long distance. I wonder how much economic specialization could be accomplished back then. If there was a significant amount of it, then long range trade might be worthwhile. Otherwise, that jade axe could, as you said, have travelled a few dozen KMs at a time over decades or centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/82 "2015-03-05T05:28:36Z")
Maybe I should have said trading networks to be safe. That said, obsidian was mined in 2 locations in Turkey c. 14,000 - 12,000 BC and traveled hundreds of miles. Over time, chips from those mines would be discovered further and further away from their origin, reaching the Sinai Peninsula by 12,000 - 9500 BC. [ArchAtlas: The Obsidian Trade in the Near East, 14,000 to 6500 BC](http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php) The hand axe was a little different as it was a luxury good in excellent condition, suggesting to me that it may have not passed through dozens of hands. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/83 "2015-03-05T05:42:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [11-18-2012, 09:56 PM] The immediate cause of the switch to iron in the Eastern Mediterranean area was [the general political turmoil ca 1200 BC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse) which made the importation of tin (from Afghanistan) more difficult. But primitive steel-making techniques soon led to a stronger metal than bronze: thus iron was soon _better_ for weapons as well as cheaper. > > _It does seem surprising how extensive and early trading was. [Polished jadeite axes from the Italian Alps were valued prestige items somehow exported (in a series of steps?) all the way to northern Scotland](http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-100-102-903-C), by about 3800 BC._ Ninja’ed again: > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [Today, 04:46 AM] Replied to years ago, but here’s another bit of evidence. A neolithic jade hand axe was discovered in Britain dating from 2000-4000BC. Since it’s jade, they can locate the location of the original mine. It’s in Italy. > > Stone age civilizations were capable of long distance trade. Blows my mind. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I do not believe they ship[ped in Tin from Britain. Sorry, I can’t believe this. I don’t care if you produce a 6000 year-old to _say_ it to me facce, I don’t believe this statement. Since manufacture of British tin-bronze began about 4200 years ago, the 6000-year old witness will be hard to find. 😉 … But the discovery in Britain did spread rapidly throughout Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/84 "2015-03-05T06:09:04Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I don’t think you understand the iron production techniques of that time. They only knew how to make wrought iron, not cast iron. Wrought iron is pretty much pure iron, unless it’s been worked enough for carbon to disolve into its outer layers to make it a steel. Wrought Iron is low-carbon steel, but with slag inclusions up to about 2%. When you take the carbon and the slag out of Iron, what you have left is steel. Technically, the difference is that things traditionally called “Iron” consist of a mixture of two different things. like honey and sand. “Steel” consists of one thing, like suger and water makes suger water. To make steel, you have to remove enough of the oxygen, carbon, silica and whatever so that what remains doesn’t seperate out into a seperate phase like the slag inclusions in wrought iron. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/85 "2015-03-05T06:34:15Z")
> [@dunkleosteus](#): > > The primary ore of tin in ancient times was Cassiterite. It’s found nearly exclusively in granite Slight nitpick with your otherwise excellent post - most cassiterite wasn’t mined from granite, but from placer deposits, and the deposits that are associated with granite aren’t usually _in_ the granite _sensu strictu_, but in the pegmatites and veins that pierce both the granite and the country rock. > [@Melbourne](#): > > Wrought Iron is low-carbon steel No. It isn’t steel of any sort, nobody calls it that. > [@](#): > > When you take the carbon and the slag out of Iron, what you have left is steel. No. You’re left with wrought iron, as you can’t get all the slag out with bloomery methods. To get steel, you have to put carbon _back into_ the iron. In the times we’re talking about, this happened more-or-less haphazardly when heating wrought iron in reducing circumstances (like a charcoal forge, while making something) ---
**Author:** ![dunkleosteus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkleosteus/32/9331_2.png) [@dunkleosteus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunkleosteus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/86 "2015-03-05T16:20:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Slight nitpick with your otherwise excellent post - most cassiterite wasn’t mined from granite, but from placer deposits, and the deposits that are associated with granite aren’t usually _in_ the granite _sensu strictu_, but in the pegmatites and veins that pierce both the granite and the country rock. Ah thanks, that’s a detail I must have missed in my research. Here’s an image I found that might help illustrate my point a bit though; [![](https://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Bronze_Age_Tin_Deposits.jpg) ](https://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Bronze_Age_Tin_Deposits.jpg) A lot of cassiterite can be found in Afghanistan but there is very little in the areas around the eastern Mediterranean. ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/87 "2015-03-06T01:59:08Z")
> [@dunkleosteus](#): > > In conclusion, I think it’s reasonable to say that the initial switch from bronze to iron was fueled by necessity rather than superiority. An interesting bootnote is Greek statues. Initially they were predominately bronze. As bronze became rarer it was decided to melt down the statues for other purposes. In order to preserve the artistic value of the bronze statues it became common for marble copies to be made before they were melted down. This created a thriving Greek industry of statue marble carving and they filled the Roman Empire with their works. Anybody who was anybody in Rome had a marble statue or two of themselves made by a Greek artisan. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/88 "2015-03-06T05:15:23Z")
> [@jezzaOZ](#): > > An interesting bootnote is Greek statues. > > Initially they were predominately bronze. Cite? I know a lot of the _Classical_ sculpture was initially bronze and we mostly have Roman copies, but AFAIK _Archaic_ sculpture (e.g. the _korai_ and _kouroi_) was mostly marble from the get-go. There’s speculation about the Kritios _kouros_, but we know the kouroi antecedents are also stone, so the jury’s out. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/89 "2015-03-06T05:47:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > methods. To get steel, you have to put carbon _back into_ the iron. You’ve stated a thesis: I’ve stated a counter-thesis. The next step would be for you to present arguments supporting your thesis. Like this: [artmetal.com](http://www.artmetal.com/project/NOMMA/WROUGHT.HTM) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/90 "2015-03-06T06:04:16Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > You’ve stated a thesis: I’ve stated a counter-thesis. The next step would be for you to present arguments supporting your thesis. > > Like this: > [artmetal.com](http://www.artmetal.com/project/NOMMA/WROUGHT.HTM) Note that when you say 1. you _take the slag out_ to make steel, and say 2. wrought iron _is_ low-carbon steel, and then 3. post a cite that spends whole paragraphs on the fibre structure of slag inclusions\* in wrought iron\*, somewhere there’s a hole in your logic or your reading comprehension. [Have fun](http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/scitech/iron_steel.html) > [@](#): > > Making Steel > > Both wrought iron and cast iron have their uses, but since neither form of iron has ideal properties, the smith will probably want to make steel, at least in small amounts. To do this, he needs another type of furnace. If he is faced with high-carbon cast iron, he must use an oxygen-rich furnace to try to “decarburize” or reduce the carbon content. If he is faced with low-carbon wrought iron, he must somehow produce a carbon-rich environment that would encourage limited amounts of carbon to combine with the iron. > > Both tasks are hard to control in practice, but there is evidence that both methods were practiced in different parts of the world. Western smiths usually followed a process of heating the low-carbon wrought iron in some type of sealed container containing carbon, the idea being to promote the migration of carbon atoms into the metal. It was tricky, and often produced only small amounts of steel, but steel was simply so useful for tools and weapons that even small amounts were important. Steel edges were usually welded to a wrought iron core or blade to make a steeled tool in the most economical manner. ---
**Author:** ![dunkleosteus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkleosteus/32/9331_2.png) [@dunkleosteus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunkleosteus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/91 "2015-03-06T16:08:58Z")
Wrought iron is closest to elemental iron, or as close as can be achieved with ancient techniques. As I said before, steel typically has a carbon content between 0.8-2%. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/92 "2015-03-08T04:12:08Z")
> [@dunkleosteus](#): > > Wrought iron is closest to elemental iron, or as close as can be achieved with ancient techniques. As I said before, steel typically has a carbon content between 0.8-2%. Wrought iron is a mixture of elemental iron and slag inclusions up to 2%. It has the same carbon content as low-carbon steel. Adding carbon to wrought iron does not form steel: it forms a two-phase mixture of carbon-iron and slag-carbon. Two-phase mixtures are not steel. Steel is not a two-phase mixture. The slag inclusions are a critical part of the physical properties of wrought iron, that is, wrought iron formed by working iron to reduce the carbon content. (Modern “Wrought Iron” is a form of iron work, made using mild steel. I hope no-one here is confusing mild steel with “iron that has been wrought”) I take your insults about not being able to read, and double them. With knobs on it. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/93 "2015-03-08T13:11:47Z")
That must be what they call irony. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/94 "2015-03-08T21:00:09Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > In his book **Guns, Germs and Steel** , Jared Diamond talks about Pizarro with a force of 169 defeating the Inca leader, Atahuallpa, with an army of 80,000. Mr. Diamond seems to think that superiority in weapons will win the day. Mr. Diamond was not quite so naive. He was well aware that tactics played an important roll, noting how the Spanish suffered several serious defeats once the Inca developed ways to counteract the advantages of armor. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/95 "2015-03-09T00:42:24Z")
> [@dunkleosteus](#): > > Ah thanks, that’s a detail I must have missed in my research. Here’s an image I found that might help illustrate my point a bit though; > > [http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Bronze\_Age\_Tin\_Deposits.jpg](http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Bronze_Age_Tin_Deposits.jpg) > > A lot of cassiterite can be found in Afghanistan but there is very little in the areas around the eastern Mediterranean. Given that according to your map, there are numerous deposits all over western Europe, closer to the Mediterranean Sea, and in fact very few in the British islands, what was the reason why tin had to be imported from there? ---
**Author:** ![dunkleosteus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkleosteus/32/9331_2.png) [@dunkleosteus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunkleosteus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/96 "2015-03-09T03:36:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Given that according to your map, there are numerous deposits all over western Europe, closer to the Mediterranean Sea, and in fact very few in the British islands, what was the reason why tin had to be imported from there? As far as I know, the area I’m mainly referring to is that region in the eastern Mediterranean. There are deposits, but that’s still thousands of miles to travel on foot, especially carrying rocks. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/97 "2015-03-09T08:26:48Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Wrought iron is a mixture of elemental iron and slag inclusions up to 2%. It has the same carbon content as low-carbon steel. No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Adding carbon to wrought iron does not form steel Yes, it does. Note that the historical procedure for adding the carbon (working the wrought iron hot from a reducing charcoal forge fire) _also_ served to aid in getting the slag fibres out of the matrix. > [@](#): > > wrought iron formed by working iron to reduce the carbon content That’s not how wrought iron is formed. The working is to drive slag out of the bloom, not reduce the carbon content. > [@](#): > > (Modern “Wrought Iron” is a form of iron work, made using mild steel. I hope no-one here is confusing mild steel with “iron that has been wrought”) Given that I posted a link to how it was done historically (which you still haven’t responded to), I wouldn’t say we’re the ones who are confused. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/98 "2015-03-09T18:35:58Z")
> [@dunkleosteus](#): > > As far as I know, the area I’m mainly referring to is that region in the eastern Mediterranean. There are deposits, but that’s still thousands of miles to travel on foot, especially carrying rocks. Sorry, I meant imported from the British isles, while there are much more deposits in other western European areas closer to the Mediterranean Sea. I wasn’t efering to the import from Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276/99 "2015-03-11T18:13:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Mr. Diamond was not quite so naive. He was well aware that tactics played an important roll, noting how the Spanish suffered several serious defeats once the Inca developed ways to counteract the advantages of armor. Plus, IIRC from history and from Diamond’s description, Pizzaro was not alone - he also picked up an entourage of local coastal Indians, who saw an advantage in following the Spanish and taking on their traditional enemy, the Incas. The Incas and others in the area apparently used clubs and had cotton padding 'armour"; totally useless against guns and especially sharp steel edges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-real-reason-iron-weapons-replaced-bronze-weapons/128276.md?page=4)