What's the real reason iron weapons replaced bronze weapons?

I wonder how much economic specialization could be accomplished back then. If there was a significant amount of it, then long range trade might be worthwhile. Otherwise, that jade axe could, as you said, have travelled a few dozen KMs at a time over decades or centuries.

Maybe I should have said trading networks to be safe. That said, obsidian was mined in 2 locations in Turkey c. 14,000 - 12,000 BC and traveled hundreds of miles. Over time, chips from those mines would be discovered further and further away from their origin, reaching the Sinai Peninsula by 12,000 - 9500 BC. ArchAtlas: The Obsidian Trade in the Near East, 14,000 to 6500 BC

The hand axe was a little different as it was a luxury good in excellent condition, suggesting to me that it may have not passed through dozens of hands.

Ninja’ed again:

Since manufacture of British tin-bronze began about 4200 years ago, the 6000-year old witness will be hard to find. :wink: … But the discovery in Britain did spread rapidly throughout Western Europe.

Wrought Iron is low-carbon steel, but with slag inclusions up to about 2%.

When you take the carbon and the slag out of Iron, what you have left is steel.

Technically, the difference is that things traditionally called “Iron” consist of a mixture of two different things. like honey and sand. “Steel” consists of one thing, like suger and water makes suger water.

To make steel, you have to remove enough of the oxygen, carbon, silica and whatever so that what remains doesn’t seperate out into a seperate phase like the slag inclusions in wrought iron.

Slight nitpick with your otherwise excellent post - most cassiterite wasn’t mined from granite, but from placer deposits, and the deposits that are associated with granite aren’t usually in the granite sensu strictu, but in the pegmatites and veins that pierce both the granite and the country rock.

No. It isn’t steel of any sort, nobody calls it that.

No. You’re left with wrought iron, as you can’t get all the slag out with bloomery methods. To get steel, you have to put carbon back into the iron. In the times we’re talking about, this happened more-or-less haphazardly when heating wrought iron in reducing circumstances (like a charcoal forge, while making something)

Ah thanks, that’s a detail I must have missed in my research. Here’s an image I found that might help illustrate my point a bit though;

A lot of cassiterite can be found in Afghanistan but there is very little in the areas around the eastern Mediterranean.

An interesting bootnote is Greek statues.

Initially they were predominately bronze. As bronze became rarer it was decided to melt down the statues for other purposes.

In order to preserve the artistic value of the bronze statues it became common for marble copies to be made before they were melted down.

This created a thriving Greek industry of statue marble carving and they filled the Roman Empire with their works. Anybody who was anybody in Rome had a marble statue or two of themselves made by a Greek artisan.

Cite?

I know a lot of the Classical sculpture was initially bronze and we mostly have Roman copies, but AFAIK Archaic sculpture (e.g. the korai and kouroi) was mostly marble from the get-go. There’s speculation about the Kritios kouros, but we know the kouroi antecedents are also stone, so the jury’s out.

You’ve stated a thesis: I’ve stated a counter-thesis. The next step would be for you to present arguments supporting your thesis.

Like this:
artmetal.com

Note that when you say

  1. you take the slag out to make steel, and say
  2. wrought iron is low-carbon steel, and then
  3. post a cite that spends whole paragraphs on the fibre structure of slag inclusions* in wrought iron*,

somewhere there’s a hole in your logic or your reading comprehension.

Have fun

Wrought iron is closest to elemental iron, or as close as can be achieved with ancient techniques. As I said before, steel typically has a carbon content between 0.8-2%.

Wrought iron is a mixture of elemental iron and slag inclusions up to 2%. It has the same carbon content as low-carbon steel.

Adding carbon to wrought iron does not form steel: it forms a two-phase mixture of carbon-iron and slag-carbon. Two-phase mixtures are not steel. Steel is not a two-phase mixture.

The slag inclusions are a critical part of the physical properties of wrought iron, that is, wrought iron formed by working iron to reduce the carbon content.
(Modern “Wrought Iron” is a form of iron work, made using mild steel. I hope no-one here is confusing mild steel with “iron that has been wrought”)

I take your insults about not being able to read, and double them. With knobs on it.

That must be what they call irony.

Mr. Diamond was not quite so naive. He was well aware that tactics played an important roll, noting how the Spanish suffered several serious defeats once the Inca developed ways to counteract the advantages of armor.

Given that according to your map, there are numerous deposits all over western Europe, closer to the Mediterranean Sea, and in fact very few in the British islands, what was the reason why tin had to be imported from there?

As far as I know, the area I’m mainly referring to is that region in the eastern Mediterranean. There are deposits, but that’s still thousands of miles to travel on foot, especially carrying rocks.

No, it doesn’t.

Yes, it does.

Note that the historical procedure for adding the carbon (working the wrought iron hot from a reducing charcoal forge fire) also served to aid in getting the slag fibres out of the matrix.

That’s not how wrought iron is formed. The working is to drive slag out of the bloom, not reduce the carbon content.

Given that I posted a link to how it was done historically (which you still haven’t responded to), I wouldn’t say we’re the ones who are confused.

Sorry, I meant imported from the British isles, while there are much more deposits in other western European areas closer to the Mediterranean Sea.

I wasn’t efering to the import from Afghanistan.

Plus, IIRC from history and from Diamond’s description, Pizzaro was not alone - he also picked up an entourage of local coastal Indians, who saw an advantage in following the Spanish and taking on their traditional enemy, the Incas.

The Incas and others in the area apparently used clubs and had cotton padding 'armour"; totally useless against guns and especially sharp steel edges.