# What's the right way to pronounce the surname 'St-John'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835 "2007-03-06T18:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/21 "2007-03-06T21:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Probably however Mr./Ms. Saint John tells you to pronounce it is your best bet. But there is indeed an old aristocratic English family who pronounce it “sin-jin”. Another famous example of such a name is Cholmondeley-Marjoribanks, which is pronounced “chumley-marchbanks”. Speaking of Chumley, does anyone remember a cartoon from the 1960s that had a walrus named Chumley in it it? I imagine he used the phonetic spelling. [/QUOTE] Tennessee Tuxedo, I think. Loved that guy! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/22 "2007-03-06T23:13:30Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] You caught that did you? It was a joke. But there are some names I’ve encountered that are spelled virtually no way close to how they’re pronounced. And when my wife and I have this discussion, it’s her position that there’s no such thing as a “mispronounced” name: it’s the owner’s right to say it however they want. I tend to disagree. Some things are just plain wrong. [/QUOTE] What right do you have to overrule the owner’s decision? Who should be the expert in pronouncing the name: the person who uses it, or some stranger who he’s never met? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/23 "2007-03-06T23:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] What right do you have to overrule the owner’s decision? Who should be the expert in pronouncing the name: the person who uses it, or some stranger who he’s never met? [/QUOTE] Easy. If I see the name in print, I will try to pronounce it phonetically. If the person owning the name corrects me, I will adjust. Otherwise, I assume the spelling is a good clue. If somebody’s name is Brewster I will say broo-ster, until and unless he or she tells me it’s really Jones. What method do you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/24 "2007-03-07T00:32:25Z")
Then there’s the British surname Featherstonehaugh, pronounced Fanshaw. (Any Wodehouse fans recall Stanley Featherstonehaugh Ukridge?) ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/25 "2007-03-07T01:59:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] Then there’s the British surname Featherstonehaugh, pronounced Fanshaw. (Any Wodehouse fans recall Stanley Featherstonehaugh Ukridge?) [/QUOTE] Fanshaw is only one of of many variations, including Feerstonhaw and Festonhay. Different branches of the family use difference pronunciations. (Oh, and FYI, Ukridge has a long U: Yewkridge, not Uckridge.) C.L. Dodgson (Lewis Carroll to you) didn’t pronounce the G in his last name: Dodson. As someone once said, an Englishman’s last name is his castle. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/26 "2007-03-07T02:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=LurkMeister] And isn’t “Saint-John” also used as a first name? [/QUOTE] Yep. We have a news reporter whose name is ‘Sinjin Alexander’ - on the screen ‘St. John Alexander’. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/27 "2007-03-07T14:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=commasense] Fanshaw is only one of of many variations, including Feerstonhaw and Festonhay. Different branches of the family use difference pronunciations. (Oh, and FYI, Ukridge has a long U: Yewkridge, not Uckridge.) C.L. Dodgson (Lewis Carroll to you) didn’t pronounce the G in his last name: Dodson. As someone once said, an Englishman’s last name is his castle. [/QUOTE] In the 1960’s TV show about Wodehouse’s Ukridge, Anton Rodgers, the actor who plays the character, pronounces the middle name “Fanshaw.” ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/28 "2007-03-07T15:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] In the 1960’s TV show about Wodehouse’s Ukridge, Anton Rodgers, the actor who plays the character, pronounces the middle name “Fanshaw.” [/QUOTE] No doubt. I wasn’t contradicting you. I meant that members of the Featherstonehaugh family IRL have different pronunciations. I don’t recall if Wodehouse ever spoke about the pronunciation of the name. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/29 "2007-03-07T21:11:04Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] What right do you have to overrule the owner’s decision? Who should be the expert in pronouncing the name: the person who uses it, or some stranger who he’s never met? [/QUOTE] I sort of agree with **Zeldar’s** statement. Sure it’s up to the owner of the name to say how it should be pronounced, but if they go totally off base it’ll confuse a lot of people, some of whom may correct the person, even if unintentionally. There’s an indie singer-songwriter called Mary Gauthier but she pronounces it Gauchet (go-shay). WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/30 "2007-03-07T21:21:16Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] I sort of agree with **Zeldar’s** statement. Sure it’s up to the owner of the name to say how it should be pronounced, but if they go totally off base it’ll confuse a lot of people, some of whom may correct the person, even if unintentionally. There’s an indie singer-songwriter called Mary Gauthier but she pronounces it Gauchet (go-shay). WTF??? [/QUOTE] Thanks for seeing most of my point. I’d still like to clarify that: 1) sure the person to whom the name applies has first dibs on “correct” pronunciation – as far as that individual is concerned; but 2) outside that individual (who might be the only one of, or in a small group of, people who choose that pronunciation) the “rights” to a pronunciation – I contend – belong to the generally accepted phonetics. Once you consider the unusual names that appear in entertainment, sports, even politics, without a pronunciation guide, what’s a reasonable person to do? Just look at “classical music” types! Almost every branch of the arts has its “out of the norm” names and unusual pronunciations. How can a person who has never heard these names pronounced by their owner do any better than to go by the spellings? If you hadn’t heard it pronounced, how would you pronounce “Favre”? “Farve” would be down the list, I contend. And don’t even get me started on Ralph Fiennes! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/31 "2007-03-07T22:01:18Z")
Surely it’s not _entirely_ up to the owner of the name. If I started to pronounce Smithee as “Somerset Maugham,” I’m pretty sure my parents would correct me, as well as the rest of my family. If Favre is pronounced “Farv,” I don’t see how that’s Brett’s fault. Should Mr Luxury-Yacht give up who knows how many centuries of family tradition just to make his name easier? I don’t extend the same courtesy to first names, though. Whenever I meet a Jaysyn or Aymee I think to myself what a shame it is that they can’t spell their own name properly. (Even though it really is the parents who couldn’t spell.) ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/32 "2007-03-07T22:06:27Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] Surely it’s not _entirely_ up to the owner of the name. If I started to pronounce Smithee as “Somerset Maugham,” I’m pretty sure my parents would correct me, as well as the rest of my family. If Favre is pronounced “Farv,” I don’t see how that’s Brett’s fault. Should Mr Luxury-Yacht give up who knows how many centuries of family tradition just to make his name easier? I don’t extend the same courtesy to first names, though. Whenever I meet a Jaysyn or Aymee I think to myself what a shame it is that they can’t spell their own name properly. (Even though it really is the parents who couldn’t spell.) [/QUOTE] Would you like to be in charge of listing the ways that Antoine and Isaiah can be spelled? It reminds me of the kid whose intitals were O.Z. His teacher asked him what the O.Z. stood for. Onree Zavier. ---
**Author:** ![John.St](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b38774/32.png) [@John.St](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John.St)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/33 "2012-09-08T07:50:59Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Another famous example of such a name is Cholmondeley-Marjoribanks, which is pronounced “chumley-marchbanks”. - not to mention Brougham, which is pronounced “Broom”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/34 "2012-09-08T10:30:46Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > It reminds me of the kid whose intitals were O.Z. His teacher asked him what the O.Z. stood for. Onree Zavier. I would have guessed “Old Zombie”. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/35 "2012-09-08T11:05:04Z")
But one I’m grateful for, since post #2 throws new light on something I saw in _The Great Divorce_ - the name “Marjoribanks” which I’d always assumed was a garrulous woman’s slurred pronunciation of “Marjorie Banks”. We live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/36 "2012-09-08T11:44:02Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > If you hadn’t heard it pronounced, how would you pronounce “Favre”? “Farve” would be down the list, I contend. And don’t even get me started on Ralph Fiennes! The whole “Favre/Farve” thing makes me hate the fact that I’m an American. It’s so stupid to be so afraid that you’ll be thought snobbish/effete/stuck-up that you reverse two fucking letters in the pronunciation. Actually, I don’t know whether to laugh or to hate. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/37 "2012-09-08T12:17:45Z")
Then there’s “Warwick”, pronounced “worrick”. Damn lazy Brits! Arthur Black had a show on CBC radio Saturday mornings for many many years. A regular “correspondent” on his show was George “sin-jun” Quimby who delivered news of the bizarre, often British news, in a posh British accent. I think it took me many years, and a visit by a consultant with a “St. John” name, to realize that pronunciation and that spelling went together. As a first name? I mean really, who names their kid Saint John? Why not go whole hog even if it doesn’t sound kosher and call him Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/38 "2012-09-08T12:37:20Z")
And, in the English speaking world, there seems to be a feeling that a person is entitled to be known by the name of their choice. In fact, many jurisdictions permit so-called common law name changes that basically mean that a person’s legal name is the name that they use and are known by, birth certificate and driver’s license notwithstanding. If someone’s birth certificate says that they are “Juan” but they ask you to call them John, don’t be a dick. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/39 "2012-09-08T12:40:28Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > … > > As a first name? I mean really, who names their kid Saint John? Why not go whole hog even if it doesn’t sound kosher and call him Jesus? Welcome to Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/40 "2012-09-08T13:11:27Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Then there’s “Warwick”, pronounced “worrick”. Damn lazy Brits! Never been to New England, have you. Many British-ism survive in the names of towns and cities there. I still marvel at my friends out here in CA who have no trouble saying “Worcestershire Sauce”, but can’t figure out how to pronounce “Worcester”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835.md?page=3)