# What's the right way to pronounce the surname 'St-John'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835 "2007-03-06T18:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/41 "2012-09-08T14:04:42Z")
> [@Sonia\_Montdore](#): > > In the 1960’s TV show about Wodehouse’s Ukridge, Anton Rodgers, the actor who plays the character, pronounces the middle name “Fanshaw.” And don’t forget the fearless editor Psmith. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/42 "2012-09-08T14:05:20Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Just look at “classical music” types! Almost every branch of the arts has its “out of the norm” names and unusual pronunciations. How can a person who has never heard these names pronounced by their owner do any better than to go by the spellings? I realize this is five years old, but what about “classical music” types? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/43 "2012-09-08T14:19:30Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The whole “Favre/Farve” thing makes me hate the fact that I’m an American. > > It’s so stupid to be so afraid that you’ll be thought snobbish/effete/stuck-up that you reverse two fucking letters in the pronunciation. > > Actually, I don’t know whether to laugh or to hate. “Vr” is a very unusual combination in English, and we do the same thing in our pronunciation of “hors d’oeuvres,” too, so it’s not like swapping “v” and “r” is without precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/44 "2012-09-08T15:41:34Z")
If a Brit says someone is Lester, how do We know that he doesn’t mean Leicester? That’s the one thing I hate in English language, You have to guess all the time! Keep it phonetic ( ignorant Americans are actually doing good job on this… ) > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I don’t extend the same courtesy to first names, though. Whenever I meet a Jaysyn or Aymee I think to myself what a shame it is that they can’t spell their own name properly. (Even though it really is the parents who couldn’t spell.) I usually think the same, but then again if one has to choose blind date between Tiffany and Theophania… or between John and Ioannes… ( Yes, I know it was 03-08-2007 ) ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/45 "2012-09-08T16:06:58Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As a first name? I mean really, who names their kid Saint John? Why not go whole hog even if it doesn’t sound kosher and call him Jesus? The parents of Karch Kiraly’s volleyball partner, Christopher St. John Smith, known as “Sinjin.” ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/46 "2012-09-08T18:47:37Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > It reminds me of the kid whose intitals were O.Z. His teacher asked him what the O.Z. stood for. Onree Zavier. Note to those of us in the Empire: That’s O Zee. > [@Freakenstein](#): > > If a Brit says someone is Lester, how do We know that he doesn’t mean Leicester? That’s the one thing I hate in English language, You have to guess all the time! Keep it phonetic Which is why it was Shakestaff/Shakestaffe (Shak-es-staf-eh, so he was Canadian, a fact little known)/Shakespear (Shak-es-pair) who wrote Macbeth (properly, MacBeth, dammit) and why we should cover our mouths when we kowghuh. Actually, Charles Dodgson not only dropped the “g”, he pronounced it Lewis Carroll. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/47 "2012-09-08T19:58:52Z")
> [@Sonia\_Montdore](#): > > Then there’s the British surname Featherstonehaugh, pronounced Fanshaw. > (Any Wodehouse fans recall Stanley Featherstonehaugh Ukridge?) Not to mention the fact that Wodehouse itself is pronounced _Woodhouse_, and the surname of his much more famous character, _Bertie Wooster_, is pronounced _Wuh-ster_ (and would more normally be spelled Worcester - don’t get me started on the sauce!). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/48 "2012-09-08T20:16:12Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “Vr” is a very unusual combination in English, and we do the same thing in our pronunciation of “hors d’oeuvres,” too, so it’s not like swapping “v” and “r” is without precedent. Well, I’ve come across the surname Vranesh a few times. Although that’s arguably not English to begin with. As for odd spelling/pronunciation combinations: I heard indirectly of a fambly named Enroughty. Try to guess how THAT is pronounced.DarbyOkay, I’m skeptical about that too. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/49 "2012-09-08T23:04:30Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Well, I’ve come across the surname Vranesh a few times. Although that’s arguably not English to begin with. I’m just saying it’s not without precedent. “Ouvre” is pronounced with the consonants in the right order in English, for example, although “Louvre” usually (in my experience) gets chopped to “Loov.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/50 "2012-09-08T23:12:41Z")
I thought is was Street John. Live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/51 "2012-09-09T01:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > A young man called Cholmondeley Colquhoun > Kept as a pet a babolquhoun. > His mother said, “Cholmondeley, > Do you think it quite colmondeley > To feed your babolquhoun with a spolquhoun?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/52 "2012-09-09T02:29:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I thought is was Street John. Live and learn. Don’t give them any ideas. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/53 "2012-09-09T19:22:15Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > As for odd spelling/pronunciation combinations: I heard indirectly of a fambly named Enroughty. Try to guess how THAT is pronounced.DarbyOkay, I’m skeptical about that too. > [@The New York Times](#): > > To the Editor of The New York Times: > > In the very interesting letter from Mr. Lawrence Grant, he asks for the correct way to “Speak your Southern name ‘Enroughty.” This word is pronounced “Darby.” This is not analogous to the other names mentioned by Mr. Grant. > > Two men named Enroughty were left a fortune by a Mr. Darby, provided they would change their name from Enroughty to Darby. They did not change the spelling, but the were ready to fight any one who didn not call them Darby. > > H. Lee Sellers > New York, Jan, 20, 1912. The link is [here](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0915F7355517738DDDAB0A94D9405B828DF1D3), but the letter is only viewable as a PDF. [Here’s](http://www.americanheritage.com/content/enroughty-darby-and-general-mcclellan) a somewhat more detailed account, dating from 1903, along with a related Civil War story. > [@](#): > > In the middle of the Eighteenth Century the ancient and honorable-but-dirt-poor Enroughty family of England found itself impaled on two equally distasteful horns of a dilemma. Some forty years before a perverted Enroughty female had committed the unpardonable crime of marrying a plebeian scrub—and, of all things, “in trade.” In other words, working for his living; repugnant to every true Enroughty. His name was Derby, pronounced, of course, Darby. The family gave him the same treatment as they did in similar case in The House Divided , snubbed him ferociously and erased the unrepentant Magdalene from the family roll. > > And as in The House Divided the snubbed took ample and delicious revenge. When Darby died, a childless widower and worth a fortune, he left his money to the Enroughtys on condition that they change their name to Darby! And there they were. They just couldn’t miss that money—but to change the name; what a mess! > > A meeting of the clans was called, and after long debate one member came up with a brilliant and life-and-face-and-name-saving device: “Let’s keep on spelling it Enroughty and pronounce it Darby.” Carried unanimously, and with wild cheers. So that was that. ---
**Author:** ![qualityleashdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/9f8e36/32.png) [@qualityleashdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qualityleashdog)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/54 "2012-09-09T22:12:11Z")
I remember a college professor of mine discussing Arthur St. Clair [Arthur St. Clair - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_St._Clair), and he claimed the name was pronounced ‘Sinclair.’ Until this thread, that was the first and only time I encountered anyone making that pronounciation claim about the ‘St.’ in a name. If you read the beginning of the Wiki, you’ll see “His parents, unknown to early biographers, were probably William Sinclair…” If you just put in “St. Clair” on the Wiki search, you’ll see this disambiguation: “Saint Clair (also spelled St. Clair, St Clair or even Sinclair, and is sometimes also pronounced that way) may refer to…” ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/55 "2012-09-11T18:55:57Z")
Magdalene college Cambridge (the English one) is pronounced Maudlin. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/56 "2012-09-11T20:41:40Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The right way to pronounce any name is the way that person wants it pronounced. It’s _their_ name, after all. That is the polite way to do it. And, there’s legal precedent, at least in some state in the US, according to something I read, but can’t cite. Some guy put in his will that his son would inherit his fortune in a trust, but he remained the trust beneficiary only as long as he kept his surname, which was spelled out in the will or trust documents. So, the son keeps the name (say, “McGillicudy”) but pronounces it “smith”. No doubt leading to oddities when checking into hotels, but that’s beside the point. Anyway, the trustees sued, but the judge ruled that a person is allowed to pronounce his or her name however they want, and the pronunciation was not elaborated in the will and/or trust documents. Might an urban legend. I remember reading this long before I learned how to detect urban legends (and long before the Internet, as well.) In any case, James Bond was being intentionally snobbish correcting Christopher Walken’s pronunciation of “Saint John Smith” as “Sinjun-SmYthe”. It was part of his cover. Him being a world-famous spy, and all. I mean really, are we challenging the consistency of James Bond films or books? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/57 "2012-09-11T21:59:09Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I mean really, are we challenging the consistency of James Bond films or books? 😛 Especially when he hangs around with the Queen, and goes parachuting with her! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/58 "2012-09-11T22:57:53Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > And, there’s legal precedent, at least in some state in the US, according to something I read, but can’t cite. > > Some guy put in his will that his son would inherit his fortune in a trust, but he remained the trust beneficiary only as long as he kept his surname, which was spelled out in the will or trust documents. So, the son keeps the name (say, “McGillicudy”) but pronounces it “smith”. No doubt leading to oddities when checking into hotels, but that’s beside the point. Anyway, the trustees sued, but the judge ruled that a person is allowed to pronounce his or her name however they want, and the pronunciation was not elaborated in the will and/or trust documents. > > Might an urban legend. I remember reading this long before I learned how to detect urban legends (and long before the Internet, as well.) That sounds awfully similar to the story **commasense** reported. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/59 "2012-09-12T01:04:28Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > That sounds awfully similar to the story **commasense** reported. Yeah, I noticed that, but the circumstances were different. It’s possible my story was an urban legend loosely based on commasense’s. I wasn’t able to find it on the web, but I didn’t feel like I was doing the best job of searching, either. It’s hard when one doesn’t have any of the particulars. So, not much of a contribution to the conversation. No ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835/60 "2012-09-12T11:56:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The whole “Favre/Farve” thing makes me hate the fact that I’m an American. > > It’s so stupid to be so afraid that you’ll be thought snobbish/effete/stuck-up that you reverse two fucking letters in the pronunciation. > > Actually, I don’t know whether to laugh or to hate. I’ve never understood why Americans seem to be so mystified by the Favre/Farve pronunciation. To me, “Favre” immediately looks like a French name, which means it will likely be pronounced to rhyme with “Le Havre”, that is, stress on the first syllable, “FAHV”, with “ruh” almost entirely elided on the end. Add on a few generations of lazy English pronunciation, and “FAHV” is almost exactly what I would expect. (There is the added complication of rhoticity or non-rhoticity, but in a British accent, “FAHV” and “FARV” would sound identical.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-right-way-to-pronounce-the-surname-st-john/394835.md?page=4)