# What's the root of the opprobrium against desiring pleasure? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 18, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461 "2019-09-18T21:36:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/21 "2019-09-19T14:11:49Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It’s fine for a person to say that hedonism doesn’t work for them, but I think the OP is asking why people would be critical of _others_ who seek pleasure. That’s really it- there seems to be a contingent of people who are the No Fun Police, and have this viewpoint that if you don’t just wholeheartedly embrace the unpleasant and stressful aspects of adult life as your primary goal, then you’re somehow being childish and irresponsible. It’s like they’re making the assumption that if you choose to prioritize fun vs. responsibilty, that you’re necessarily being irresponsible. Which isn’t so; there’s always something that needs doing (especially if you’re a homeowner), but putting off replacing the fascia vents for a few months because you’d rather go fishing on summer weekends doesn’t equate to irresponsibility as long as you’re not somehow destroying your home in the process. But they don’t see it that way- they see someone who’s shirking a responsibility in favor of fishing, rather than the (more sane, IMO) person who’s weighing the consequences and deciding that fishing is the better option. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/22 "2019-09-19T14:16:57Z")
> [@CC](#): > > ( **Thudlow Boink** - one reference for you: [Temperance (virtue) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_(virtue))). As I understand it, temperance isn’t about desire being bad. It’s about moderation, and about you being in control vs. the desire being in control. > [@](#): > > I read that Buddha said that desire was the cause of suffering, but I wonder how he arrived at that notion. Why not, say, anger, or hatred? Anger or hatred can certainly involve desire: desire for revenge, for example. Not all desire is pleasure-related. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/23 "2019-09-19T14:19:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s like they’re making the assumption that if you choose to prioritize fun vs. responsibilty, that you’re necessarily being irresponsible. Which isn’t so; there’s always something that needs doing (especially if you’re a homeowner), but putting off replacing the fascia vents for a few months because you’d rather go fishing on summer weekends doesn’t equate to irresponsibility as long as you’re not somehow destroying your home in the process. > > But they don’t see it that way- they see someone who’s shirking a responsibility in favor of fishing, rather than the (more sane, IMO) person who’s weighing the consequences and deciding that fishing is the better option. And that’s where temperance or moderation may come in. Are you _always_ replacing the fascia vents? Are you _always_ going fishing? Or are you finding a balance? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/24 "2019-09-19T14:27:05Z")
And heaven forbid that you might just lie down in the grass on a nice sunny day and let your mind wander for a while. Especially if you’re an adult; but to some extent even if you’re six. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/25 "2019-09-19T14:31:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think it is because people in general believe that service to others is a virtue, and it is hard for many people to imagine a hedonistic servant. The person who lives to make others happy is a more remarkable person and than the person who lives to make only him or herself happy. The first is not necessarily more valuable than the second, but they are definitely more likely to leave a positive impression on those around them. This would support a position of indifference toward hedonists - not the hostility the OP sees. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/26 "2019-09-19T14:56:02Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > This would support a position of indifference toward hedonists - not the hostility the OP sees. Well, if people are programmed with the notion that it is good to put others ahead of oneself, then the implicit message is that putting oneself above others is bad. And of course bad things invite hostility. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/27 "2019-09-19T16:26:26Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And that’s where temperance or moderation may come in. Are you _always_ replacing the fascia vents? Are you _always_ going fishing? Or are you finding a balance? Well yeah, that’s what reasonable people think. But there is a big contingent of unreasonable people out there who are… dour and all work, no play, and have this feeling that a responsibility unfulfilled is an act of negligence, no matter how small or inconsequential. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/28 "2019-09-19T18:03:21Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Well yeah, that’s what reasonable people think. But there is a big contingent of unreasonable people out there who are… dour and all work, no play, and have this feeling that a responsibility unfulfilled is an act of negligence, no matter how small or inconsequential. There is also a big contingent of people who think there is something wrong with you if you aren’t constantly pursuing pleasure. All the preaching to “do what you love” and “find your passion” sounds like mindless blahblahblah to folks who are OK with being somewhere in the gray swath between misery and ecstasy. Personally, I have to run into more smugness from pleasure-seekers than their opposites. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/29 "2019-09-19T18:03:35Z")
My assumption is that pleasure is downplayed because many if not most pleasurable things come at the cost of necessary things. One who pursues pleasure excessively may neglect things that are necessary for sustaining their own lives, preparing for retirement, and providing for their family. It’s the grasshopper and the ant thing; if you spend $3,000 on a vacation, that is money you might need for your kids’ college, home repair, or basic needs when you no longer have an income. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/30 "2019-09-19T18:49:55Z")
If you spend your life chasing hookers and blow, then you are not working. If you are not working, you are not making a contribution to the community. Some have extrapolated this to a moral extreme to suggest that all pleasure for its own sake is sinful. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/31 "2019-09-19T21:00:19Z")
I think it’s pretty simple from the viewpoint of people in the Middle Ages and such. Throwing away your money on fun stuff? That’s money that could go into the alms box. Wasting time doing fun stuff? That’s time you can spend working either to improve your own family’s life or to help others. And in particular, giving stuff/time to the church in some form or another was a good way to grease the way in the afterlife. Note that these rules only applied to the _hoi polloi_. If you were the king or bishop, having gold all around and being idle most of the time was perfectly a-okay. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/32 "2019-09-19T22:30:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In modern times people can get very upset when people are slothful, gluttonous, lazy, play video games, etc. They want life to be an intentional, **spartan** , conscious effort. Spartan? Spartan means “showing the indifference to comfort or luxury traditionally associated with ancient Sparta.” In contrast modern times is heavily based on conspicuous consumption (“keeping up with the Jones”). ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/33 "2019-09-20T04:56:34Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > You’ve never seen [“spartan”](https://www.google.com/search?q=definition%20spartan&cad=h) used this way? You obviously missed the “in modern times” part of what I was quoting. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/34 "2019-09-20T08:01:27Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I think it’s pretty simple from the viewpoint of people in the Middle Ages and such. > > Throwing away your money on fun stuff? That’s money that could go into the alms box. > > Wasting time doing fun stuff? That’s time you can spend working either to improve your own family’s life or to help others. > > And in particular, giving stuff/time to the church in some form or another was a good way to grease the way in the afterlife. > > **Note that these rules only applied to the _hoi polloi_. If you were the king or bishop, having gold all around and being idle most of the time was perfectly a-okay.** (My bolding) – while this is, unfortunately, the way human beings tend to “roll”; in fairness, a good and conscientious king or bishop or other person in high office, would spend a great deal of time working. ---
**Author:** ![WilliamWilsonsDoppelgaenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@WilliamWilsonsDoppelgaenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilliamWilsonsDoppelgaenger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/35 "2019-09-20T12:10:25Z")
I just wanted to note that this negative view of pleasure seeking has already been discussed and criticized in antiquity. As it happens, the “lorem ipsum” filler text is based on a some paragraphs from Cicero on exactly this topic: > [@](#): > > But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing of a pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. … See here for the full text: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem\_ipsum#Source\_text](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum#Source_text) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/36 "2019-09-20T13:18:50Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > My assumption is that pleasure is downplayed because many if not most pleasurable things come at the cost of necessary things. One who pursues pleasure excessively may neglect things that are necessary for sustaining their own lives, preparing for retirement, and providing for their family. It’s the grasshopper and the ant thing; if you spend $3,000 on a vacation, that is money you might need for your kids’ college, home repair, or basic needs when you no longer have an income. Right- but some take it too far, and chop out the “excessively”, and look at it like any moment you’re not scraping to get ahead at work, or doing something “necessary”, that you’re de-facto performing an irresponsible act. I think we’d all agree that’s a bit extreme. That said, I do know where the attitude comes from- I recall my parents saying snide and grumpy things about some of my friends’ parents who in their words “only want to play”, when I was younger. At the time and for a long time after, I always had just ascribed it to sour grapes on my parents’ part, as for a big piece of my youth, my parents didn’t have a lot of money. But once my parents hit retirement age, they retired, and have enough money to live comfortably and cover all their needs. Meanwhile, some of those friends’ parents are STILL working in their mid-70s because they didn’t save adequately for retirement, presumably because they were buying boats, new cars, tricked-out hunting guns, hunting leases, etc… and going on long vacations, while my parents sucked it up and saved. So I can see where the root of the attitude comes from, but I personally think there’s probably an appropriate balance somewhere in there; my parents could have stood a little more enjoyment of their own along the line. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/37 "2019-09-20T13:42:13Z")
> [@CC](#): > > I read that Buddha said that desire was the cause of suffering, but I wonder how he arrived at that notion. Why not, say, anger, or hatred? Coming back to this: I’m neither a Buddhist nor an expert on Buddhism, and maybe somebody will chime in here who is. But it’s my impression that the underlying idea is that if people didn’t want anything, then there wouldn’t be any suffering. If there’s no food, but you didn’t have any desire to eat, then you wouldn’t suffer from the lack of food. If you’re in pain or way too cold or way too hot, but you didn’t desire to be comfortable, then you wouldn’t suffer from the pain or the heat or the cold. If your child or parent or best friend died, but you didn’t desire them to be alive, then you wouldn’t suffer from their dying. And so on. If people didn’t want anything, I think that there would in short order be no people. But that’s a different issue. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/38 "2019-09-20T15:35:39Z")
In my way of understanding the use of the terms, there has been for a long time an implied dishonor in the pursuit of pleasure, and it has been my interest in understanding how such a sentiment developed. One suggestion here is that such pursuit is seen as selfish, in that it redirects efforts away from the common good, just for the pleasure of the individual. It’s anti-social. I’m more intrigued by the implication here that there is inherently something indecent in pursuing or even in desiring pleasure. One poster, and reading about temperance, has suggested that it is related to the notion of self-control. I take that to mean that “You shouldn’t think about those things because if you do, you might lose control and not be able to check or regulate your impulses.” But that, itself, may only betray someone else’s lack of trust in his own self-control. And that just brings the question back to the original question - so what? Why would anyone care? Is there some sense of guilt embedded in desire? It’s hard to make sense of this. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/39 "2019-09-22T15:03:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That said, I do know where the attitude comes from- I recall my parents saying snide and grumpy things about some of my friends’ parents who in their words “only want to play”, when I was younger. At the time and for a long time after, I always had just ascribed it to sour grapes on my parents’ part, as for a big piece of my youth, my parents didn’t have a lot of money. But once my parents hit retirement age, they retired, and have enough money to live comfortably and cover all their needs. Meanwhile, some of those friends’ parents are STILL working in their mid-70s because they didn’t save adequately for retirement, presumably because they were buying boats, new cars, tricked-out hunting guns, hunting leases, etc… and going on long vacations, while my parents sucked it up and saved. Coming back to this one: I agree that a certain degree of providence for the future is a good idea. But I find it interesting that many people seem to take it for granted that one ought to trade roughly forty years or more of doing something one quite possibly detests, during all of one’s young adulthood and middle age, in order to be able to do what one wants in old age – for an unknown but almost certainly shorter length of time, during at least part of which one stands a good chance of no longer being physically able to do some of what’s desired. If I’ve traded a financially comfortable and financially unworried old age for doing the work I want to do during the years I’m able to do it: I think that’s also a reasonable trade. If your parents’ friends traded being able to go on vacations and go hunting and boating while they were young and healthy for being able to do so in old age, when possibly they’re also healthy enough to do so but they might not be and/or easily might not have been: maybe they think that was a reasonable trade. (The new cars I’m inclined to give you. But then, I think of cars purely as transportation.) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461/40 "2019-09-23T13:26:46Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Coming back to this one: I agree that a certain degree of providence for the future is a good idea. But I find it interesting that many people seem to take it for granted that one ought to trade roughly forty years or more of doing something one quite possibly detests, during all of one’s young adulthood and middle age, in order to be able to do what one wants in old age – for an unknown but almost certainly shorter length of time, during at least part of which one stands a good chance of no longer being physically able to do some of what’s desired. > > If I’ve traded a financially comfortable and financially unworried old age for doing the work I want to do during the years I’m able to do it: I think that’s also a reasonable trade. If your parents’ friends traded being able to go on vacations and go hunting and boating while they were young and healthy for being able to do so in old age, when possibly they’re also healthy enough to do so but they might not be and/or easily might not have been: maybe they think that was a reasonable trade. > > (The new cars I’m inclined to give you. But then, I think of cars purely as transportation.) Oh yeah, personally, I advocate a balance. I think my parents were maybe a bit on the unyielding side when it came to that sort of thing, but my friends’ parents were a little too similar to the Grasshopper in the fable as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-root-of-the-opprobrium-against-desiring-pleasure/840461.md?page=3)