# What's the rub on religious leaders and sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302 "2015-10-02T21:04:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/1 "2015-10-02T21:04:57Z")
My wife and I were having an amusing discussion on if the Pope had ever been laid, or if he is a virgin. I guess Francis started out life as a normal kid and at some point entered the clergy and took a vow of chastity, so it’s possible he may have had a sexual encounter. This lead me to a more sober question as to the sex practices of religious leaders in general. She said only in Catholicism are their religious leaders taking a vow of chastity. That the Church of England was formed because the King wanted a divorce, and the clergy wanted to be able to have sex. Not sure of the truth to all that, but anyway… So, what’s the rub? We were limited to western/Abrahamic religions, but not sure about eastern religions like Buddhism or Hinduism. Are other religious leaders leading a chaste life in service to their deity? In Christianity, are pastors leading normal reproductive lives, as long as they are married? Not sure how all this works so please be gentle in ignorance fighting here. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/2 "2015-10-02T21:29:04Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > My wife and I were having an amusing discussion on if the Pope had ever been laid, or if he is a virgin. Possibly. Never having been married, he’s not supposed to have other, but it wouldn’t invalidate him as long as keep keeps his current vows. > [@](#): > > So, what’s the rub? We were limited to western/Abrahamic religions, but not sure about eastern religions like Buddhism or Hinduism. Some in those faiths take a vow of chastity. > [@](#): > > Are other religious leaders leading a chaste life in service to their deity? Some are. Hell, all Shakers took a vow of chastity. > [@](#): > > In Christianity, are pastors leading normal reproductive lives, as long as they are married? Not sure how all this works so please be gentle in ignorance fighting here. Some are. And some aren’t supposed to but still are. In other words: you are asking lots of questions, and they all have multiple answers depending on who you’re asking about. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/3 "2015-10-03T05:09:17Z")
It appears to be well-known that Pope Francis had a girlfriend once, with whom he enjoyed dancing the tango. But I haven’t seen any mention anywhere of what _else_ they may have enjoyed. [7 Things You Didn’t Know About the Pope](http://abcnews.go.com/International/things-didnt-pope/story?id=22840539). > [@](#): > > “I love tango and I used to dance when I was young,” Pope Francis said in a 2010 biography about him called “El Jesuita." In the same book, it was revealed the pope also had a girlfriend whom he used to share this love of tango. > > “She was one of a group of friends I went dancing with. But then I discovered my religious vocation,” he told the book’s authors Francesca Ambrogetti and Sergio Rubin. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/4 "2015-10-03T15:01:35Z")
Christianity’s a mixed bag. The Catholics say all clergy are supposed to be celibate. The Orthodox say that priests can be married but monks and bishops must be celibate (for this reason most of the people who get promoted to bishops in Orthodox churches are monks). Most Protestant denominations say clergy can be married. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/5 "2015-10-03T15:49:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Christianity’s a mixed bag. The Catholics say all clergy are supposed to be celibate. The Orthodox say that priests can be married but monks and bishops must be celibate (for this reason most of the people who get promoted to bishops in Orthodox churches are monks). Most Protestant denominations say clergy can be married. And just to confuse the issue, the last Pope made arrangements to provide for married Anglican priests who wanted to go over to Rome rather than accept women priests in the CofE. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/6 "2015-10-03T15:50:49Z")
Pope Francis as a young man did have a girl friend, whom he seriously thought about marrying. Maybe he was sexually active with her, doubt he’ll admit it if thats the case, except perhaps to some biographer for release after his death… He is incidnetally, perhaps the first Pope in a while who is not from the establishment in the longest time, he came to the Priesthood late, even JPII and Benedict XVI were set for that path young. He has perhaps lived more “normal” than any. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/7 "2015-10-03T17:30:06Z")
There are also sects that call themselves Catholic and recognize and are recognized by the church who have married priests. One is called Greek Catholic, but I think there are others. I don’t know if married bishops are allowed. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/8 "2015-10-03T18:04:23Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > And just to confuse the issue, the last Pope made arrangements to provide for married Anglican priests who wanted to go over to Rome rather than accept women priests in the CofE. Was that the reason why each of them left? I think it’s more subtle than that. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There are also sects that call themselves Catholic and recognize and are recognized by the church who have married priests. One is called Greek Catholic, but I think there are others. I don’t know if married bishops are allowed. They don’t “call” themselves Catholic like how many churches use the term to mean universal. They are members in full commununion with Rome. The largest 3 are the churches in Ukraine, India (one of two), and Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/9 "2015-10-03T19:23:24Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > So, what’s the rub? Nitpick: The “rub” is an obstacle. Shakespeare got the term from lawn bowls. You seem to be asking something else, along the lines of “What’s the straight dope?” ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/10 "2015-10-03T19:38:59Z")
there are married catholic priests because they started out as priests in another part of christian faith which allowed married priests. Also there have been men who were married and then widowed and then became Catholic priests. I assume a divorced man probably would not be allowed to become a priest. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/11 "2015-10-03T19:42:57Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > So, what’s the rub? We were limited to western/Abrahamic religions, but not sure about eastern religions like Buddhism or Hinduism. Buddhism doesn’t technically have a beef with sex per se (not in the way the Catholic Church does, anyway), however fleshy bits mingling is generally speaking considered part and parcel of all those passions and desires that burden the human soul and are ultimately the root of all human suffering. Therefore abstaining altogether is usually considered to be a major step on the road to enlightenment/freedom from reincarnation. For ordained monks and priests it’s a requirement. [QUOTE=senegoid] It appears to be well-known that Pope Francis had a girlfriend once, with whom he enjoyed dancing the tango. [/QUOTE] Is that what the kids [del]are calling it these days[/del]were calling it those days ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/12 "2015-10-03T20:34:28Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > It appears to be well-known that Pope Francis had a girlfriend once, with whom he enjoyed dancing the tango. > > Is that what the kids [del]are calling it these days[/del]were calling it those days ? 🙂 I always rather liked the Private Eye euphemism “discussing Ugandan affairs”, which derived apparently from what some English politician claimed to have been doing with a lady of easy virtue, when discovered in flagrante delictu. "Private Eye " is a British satirical magazine, btw. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/13 "2015-10-03T20:37:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: The “rub” is an obstacle. Shakespeare got the term from lawn bowls. You seem to be asking something else, along the lines of “What’s the straight dope?” In my experience the rub of sex isn’t really an obstacle, and works itself out in a few minutes if done right. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/14 "2015-10-03T23:44:23Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > I always rather liked the Private Eye euphemism “discussing Ugandan affairs”, which derived apparently from what some English politician claimed to have been doing with a lady of easy virtue, when discovered in flagrante delictu. > > "Private Eye " is a British satirical magazine, btw. The equivalent euphemism popular on our side of the Pond these days in “Hiking the Appalachian Trail”. ETA: Likewise, also so-called in honor of a politician. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Futurist110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futurist110)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/15 "2015-10-04T03:14:34Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > My wife and I were having an amusing discussion on if the Pope had ever been laid, or if he is a virgin. I guess Francis started out life as a normal kid and at some point entered the clergy and took a vow of chastity, so it’s possible he may have had a sexual encounter. This lead me to a more sober question as to the sex practices of religious leaders in general. She said only in Catholicism are their religious leaders taking a vow of chastity. That the Church of England was formed because the King wanted a divorce, and the clergy wanted to be able to have sex. Not sure of the truth to all that, but anyway… > > So, what’s the rub? We were limited to western/Abrahamic religions, but not sure about eastern religions like Buddhism or Hinduism. Are other religious leaders leading a chaste life in service to their deity? In Christianity, are pastors leading normal reproductive lives, as long as they are married? Not sure how all this works so please be gentle in ignorance fighting here. This Wikipedia article is somewhat off-topic; however, it might nevertheless be of interest to you: > **[List of sexually active popes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes)** > > This is a list of sexually active popes, Catholic priests who were not celibate before they became pope, and those who were legally married before becoming pope. Some candidates were allegedly sexually active before their election as pope, and others were thought to have been sexually active during their papacies. A number of them had children. > There are various classifications for those who were sexually active during their lives. Allegations of sexual activities are of varying levels of re... ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/16 "2015-10-04T11:28:31Z")
The Church of England was formed because Henry the VIII wanted to divorce his 1st wife Catherine of Aragon who was unable to give him a son. The Catholic Church authorities, both local and in Rome, refused his many requests for the divorce. Therefore with much drama and bloodshed Henry kicked the Catholic Church out of England and formed the Church of England, divorced his 1st wife Catherine, married his 2nd wife Anne Boleyn and later had her beheaded when she displeased him. All of this was in the 1530’s time frame. No doubt about it, it did happen, and is well documented. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/17 "2015-10-04T16:05:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: The “rub” is an obstacle. Shakespeare got the term from lawn bowls. You seem to be asking something else, along the lines of “What’s the straight dope?” I believe the theologically appropriate phrase is [“What’s the buzz?”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQHImCFHipg)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stosh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@stosh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stosh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/18 "2015-10-04T17:58:45Z")
As a reformed catholic, I can tell you that pre-marital sex is a no-no. However, if you have sex and then find religion, you have to go to confession and tell all. Then, you get some penance and all is well. You are forgiven. . . and you can do anything after that. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/19 "2015-10-05T03:53:04Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There are also sects that call themselves Catholic and recognize and are recognized by the church who have married priests. One is called Greek Catholic, but I think there are others. I don’t know if married bishops are allowed. They’re the uniate churches, Eastern Rite Catholics. There are Maronites, and Chaldeans, and Coptic Catholics, and a bunch of others. There are a number of Eastern European uniate churches. They’re in full communion with Rome, and all (or at least most) of them permit priests to be married. None of them ordain women. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302/20 "2015-10-05T12:42:39Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > She said only in Catholicism are their religious leaders taking a vow of chastity. IANAC, but I think it’s more accurate to say that they take a vow of **celibacy**. The word “[chastity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chastity)” can have different shades of meaning, but in the sense of “sexual behavior of a man or woman that is acceptable to the moral standards and guidelines of their culture, civilization or religion,” _all_ Catholics are called/required to practice chastity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-rub-on-religious-leaders-and-sex/733302.md?page=2)