# What's the specific procedure for anti-gay therapy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098 "2008-09-25T01:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/21 "2008-09-25T13:37:45Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Why? I’m straight - do I have a “right” to therapy that will make me gay, if I so choose? You do, but you’re going to have to completely upgrade your wardrobe first. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/22 "2008-09-25T13:43:57Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You do, but you’re going to have to completely upgrade your wardrobe first. Don’t encourage him. More straight men having gay sex makes for more bad gay sex. People just need to stick to what they are good at. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/23 "2008-09-25T14:12:10Z")
The point I always like to make is, if a life in Christ is an effective cure for homosexuality, then why are there so many gay priests? > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Damn. I was hoping that the answer would be “provide unlimited nubile women for the gay guy to have sex with.” Then I was going to pretend to be gay and enroll in therapy. You’d think that at least part of the process would be to try to foster a sexual attraction for the opposite sex using pornography or whatnot. A load of religious ritual is a boner-kill no matter which side of the plate you bat on. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/24 "2008-09-25T14:20:17Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > So what are gay people supposed to do that don’t want to be gay? Maybe it would actually be beneficial for the Association to change their practices? Right now it looks kind of like illegal abortions prior to Roe v Wade… back alley practitioners with no ability to properly network and take advantage of new, shared techniques, etc. > > I’m not suggesting that gayness can necessarily be cured, but people that are gay that don’t want to live gay certainly have the right to some type of sanctioned, non-religious-based support in doing so, don’t they? Standard practices, accepted techniques, some degree of accountability in the field? In a word, no. Surely there are some black people who don’t want to be black. And surely some of them can “pass.” And yes, they have the right to do so if that’s their choice. But they cannot stop being black, any more than a gay person can stop being gay. All you can change is your behavior and society’s perception of you. But what really needs to be addressed is that person’s self-loathing that created the conflict in the first place. Attempting to change the person’s innate identity only exacerbates the problem; to attempt to help him become straight (or white) only reinforces the erroneous belief that being gay (or black) is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/25 "2008-09-25T14:26:36Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Look to the Communist Party-headed régimes in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and in modern-day China and North Korea. Homosexuality was/is illegal there, though the governments were/are officially atheist. Even the Western Communist Parties which allied themselves with the CPSU, including those in the United States and Canada, long held homosexuality to be deviant social behaviour caused by capitalism. No doubt some of their successors still do. I forgot about them. Do they try to un-gay you or do they “just” jail or kill you? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/26 "2008-09-25T15:00:55Z")
I don’t think there was one specific procedure, it depended on the philosophy of the practicioner. The behaviorists would tend to aversion therapy and the psychoanalysts would talk about parental issues, etc. Currently there is the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. (NARTH) There website is at [http://www.narth.com](http://www.narth.com) From an article at religous tolerance: > [@](#): > > Reparative Therapy emerged in the early 1980’s as a new method of “curing” homosexuals. It was spearheaded by Elizabeth Moberly 13 who based her theories on the findings of a few psychiatrists in the past whose conclusions had long been abandoned by almost all mental health professionals. Her belief is that homosexuality is caused by incompetence by the same-gender parent. Moberly determined…that the homosexual men in the studies were suffering from what she termed ‘defensive detachment’ and ‘same sex ambivalence.’ The theory presumes that the young boy, for any of a variety of reasons, did not bond with his father in a meaningful way." 2 Her book, published in the 1980s, has been recently reprinted and is still in print. 3 Her theory led to a treatment method in which a gay or lesbian develops a close but non-sexual relationship with a person of the same gender. This is expected to replace the close parental bond that was missing in childhood. According to her theory, heterosexual feelings would emerge during therapy, and homosexual feelings would fade over time One Dr. Nicolosi of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic reports that the results at his clinic are: > [@](#): > > One third experience “significant improvement – they understand their homosexuality and have some sense of control.” However, they may engage in same-sex sexual behavior. > Another third are “cured;” they refrain from same-sex behavior and the strength and frequency of their same-sex desires is diminished, but not necessarily gone. > The other third fail to change. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/27 "2008-09-25T15:11:31Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > So what are gay people supposed to do that don’t want to be gay? What are short people supposed to do that don’t want to be short? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/28 "2008-09-25T15:19:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t think there was one specific procedure, it depended on the philosophy of the practicioner. The behaviorists would tend to aversion therapy and the psychoanalysts would talk about parental issues, etc. Currently there is the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. (NARTH) There website is at [http://www.narth.com](http://www.narth.com) > From an article at religous tolerance: > > One Dr. Nicolosi of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic reports that the results at his clinic are: You’re aware that none of this represents any kind legitimate science? That Nicolosi is a complete fraud? That the AMA and the APA rejects all of this as garbage? That there is no such thing as being “cured” of homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/29 "2008-09-25T15:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard of dealing with say, a fear of spiders by forcing you to deal with spiders. (Aversion therapy, I think) Touching them, looking at pictures of them, etc. That’s confronting a phobia, yes. This would be exposure, not aversion. > [@](#): > > Maybe I’m not understanding your statement. Talk therapy is used all over the world by licensed psychiatrists to treat patients. Second, homosexuality isn’t a condition described in the DSM, so any techniques used to “cure” it couldn’t be described as therapeutic regardless of the methodology employed. Sorry. I put therapy in quotes because, as you say, the intervention can’t be therapeutic, as by definition there is no disorder. > [@](#): > > Man that is one info packed page. I especially like the matter of fact assertion that Moses wrote Leviticus. > [@](#): > > I’m not suggesting that gayness can necessarily be cured, but people that are gay that don’t want to live gay certainly have the right to some type of sanctioned, non-religious-based support in doing so, don’t they? Standard practices, accepted techniques, some degree of accountability in the field? This relies directly on whether sexual orientation is immutable or not (which is not the same as whether it’s “genetic,” “biological,” or “learned”). The acceptable practice is to adhere to professional standards for psychotherapy for any condition or trait that the client finds distressing. This would include talking about the client’s distress, understanding the context and effects of the distress, and helping the client to make decisions that are realistic and meaningful in the client’s life. If a client says s/he doesn’t want to “be gay,” a therapist can talk about this, ask questions, provide resources, and help the person make behavior changes if that is what the client wants to do. I don’t know whether people can change their sexual orientations, but people can change their behaviors in a variety of domains. First, though, one would want to understand why the person wanted to make those changes and what doing so would mean in the person’s life. The therapist might also provide education and ask questions to alert the client that the client’s perspective may not be universal, or that the client’s response derives from social contextual issues. This is a different approach from automatically assuming that homosexuality is a problem that should be cured. For comparison, lots of people go into therapy wanting to “be happy.” I can appreciate this wish, but there isn’t a technique to make someone “be happy.” There are ways to help the person work toward a goal (e.g., turn off that emo already and go for a walk). In addition, the intervention might include exploration of the client’s beliefs about “being happy” to understand if that’s truly the goal (as contrasted with “avoiding sadness” or “having fulfilling relationships”), and whether the goal is realistic (“I never want to be sad” is neither realistic nor, perhaps, desirable; “I want to be as happy as everyone else is” may be an accurate comparative appraisal or may be an incorrect evaluation of others’ happiness, a la “everyone else is happy all the time”). > [@](#): > > Damn. I was hoping that the answer would be “provide unlimited nubile women for the gay guy to have sex with.” Then I was going to pretend to be gay and enroll in therapy. This was an intervention tried by the Nazis in the concentration camps. It didn’t work. > [@](#): > > Why? I’m straight - do I have a “right” to therapy that will make me gay, if I so choose? If you went to a therapist to explore the question of your sexual orientation, I would hope that the therapist would not make assumptions one way or another about you, but would facilitate your exploration of the topic. You have a “right” to do what you want with yourself. You don’t have a “right” to professionals who must assist you. For example, I agree that you have the right to drink. That imposes no burden on a therapist to assist you to drink more effectively or frequently. ETA: One of the problems with NARTH is that they are loathe to share their data, so it is difficult to evaluate any of their claims. Arguably, as an organization they are not engaged in true research because one of the standards of empirical research is to present findings and data in a way that permits replication studies or reanalysis of your data. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/30 "2008-09-25T15:57:19Z")
I remember some articles a few years ago implicating Mormon groups that were big on “conversion therapy.” The method used by these groups was the application of electric shocks. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/31 "2008-09-25T16:06:23Z")
Yes, I do remember correctly. > **[Suite 101 - How-tos, Inspiration and Other Ideas to Try](https://suite101.com/)** > > Suite101 helps you discover home ideas, DIY crafts, gardening, food, style inspiration, how-tos and other ideas to make your life better. ---
**Author:** ![Solfy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Solfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solfy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/32 "2008-09-25T17:08:43Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The point I always like to make is, if a life in Christ is an effective cure for homosexuality, then why are there so many gay priests? Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but as I undestand it at least wrt Catholic teachings (and I’m sure someone will step in and correct me if I’ve been misinformed) the concensus is that being gay isn’t a sin. \*Acting \*on desires one would have as a gay person, however, is. A gay priest having no romantic or sexual relationships is not in any kind of violation. Neither would he be making any attempts to “degayify” himself. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/33 "2008-09-25T17:19:58Z")
In threads about whether homosexuality is at all immutable, the general stance seems to be that it’s not, and you’re gay or straight. In threads about whether gay and straight are absolutes, the general stance seems to be that it’s a big mushy continuum. Here is such a thread: > **[Gay guys, a question....](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484415)** > > Have you ever seen a woman in public or where ever that was so hot you were like…DAYUM !!! In other words, does some heterosexuality still live within you or is it all gay? Because I know there are straight guys who get man crushes. Now, I’m sure it’s possible to hold both those opinions at the same time without conflict, but I’m not sure the board, as a whole is being consistent across these two topics. If Kinsey is correct and there are individuals who are partly attracted to one sex, but mostly the other, then why wouldn’t it be possible to reinforce one element and play down the other? I’m not saying it _should_ be done, but why _couldn’t_ it? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/34 "2008-09-25T17:31:05Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Damn. I was hoping that the answer would be “provide unlimited nubile women for the gay guy to have sex with.” Then I was going to pretend to be gay and enroll in therapy. [That wouldn’t work.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484415) But in your case, the [penile plethysmograph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph) would give you away.😃 ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/35 "2008-09-25T17:35:05Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I see anti-gay therapy / sexual orientation therapies being promoted by some conservative religious groups to turn homosexual people back to heterosexuals, but I can’t find anything that describes the specific procedures. Is it aversion therapy, talk therapy… what? Love in Action doesn’t get too specific here…[http://www.loveinaction.org/default.aspx?pid=146](http://www.loveinaction.org/default.aspx?pid=146) …but the Zach Stark debacle of a few years ago revealed that they had a dizzing number of rules about keeping a close eye on the “clients,” not letting them have much time alone, not allowing them to have any media that wasn’t religious, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/36 "2008-09-25T18:12:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What are short people supposed to do that don’t want to be short? [http://www.addinchestoheight.com/surgery\_to\_increase\_height.html](http://www.addinchestoheight.com/surgery_to_increase_height.html) ---
**Author:** ![Merhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Merhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/37 "2008-09-25T18:35:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > In threads about whether homosexuality is at all immutable, the general stance seems to be that it’s not, and you’re gay or straight. > > In threads about whether gay and straight are absolutes, the general stance seems to be that it’s a big mushy continuum. Here is such a thread: > [Gay guys, a question.... - Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484415) > > Now, I’m sure it’s possible to hold both those opinions at the same time without conflict, but I’m not sure the board, as a whole is being consistent across these two topics. > If Kinsey is correct and there are individuals who are partly attracted to one sex, but mostly the other, then why wouldn’t it be possible to reinforce one element and play down the other? I’m not saying it _should_ be done, but why _couldn’t_ it? I think your point here about our (and I mean that in the global SDMB “our”) inconsistent opinions as to what’s absolute and what isn’t is right on. I really don’t even have the beginning of an answer to it, but I think a straight person should see if therapy can work in making them gay. Just a thought, and I truly mean no snark by it. Just seems fair that the conversion should work both ways, if indeed it works at all 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/38 "2008-09-25T19:03:06Z")
> [@Solfy](#): > > Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but as I undestand it at least wrt Catholic teachings (and I’m sure someone will step in and correct me if I’ve been misinformed) the concensus is that being gay isn’t a sin. \*Acting \*on desires one would have as a gay person, however, is. A gay priest having no romantic or sexual relationships is not in any kind of violation. Neither would he be making any attempts to “degayify” himself. I hope it was a joke, but I should say that there are many gay priests who would never touch altar boys, and the ones who did are not necessarily gay. The evangelical protestant teaching seems to be that homosexuality is a sin and akin to a mental disorder that can be “cured.” Catholic teaching seems to follow the Augustinian teaching that something is not a sin until you act upon it, so gays are ok if they’re celibate. The Catholics never bought into the ex-gay movement except in isolated cases. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/39 "2008-09-25T19:24:05Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Catholic teaching seems to follow the Augustinian teaching that something is not a sin until you act upon it, I don’t understand . . . on TV and in movies, you see a person in confession saying, “I had impure thoughts” and having to do penance. If the only “transgression” is feeling attracted to another person of my own sex or to whom I am not married, why is this being confessed? Just to encourage the person to pray for strength to avoid acting on these thoughts? That’s not penance. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098/40 "2008-09-25T19:37:09Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Why? I’m straight - do I have a “right” to therapy that will make me gay, if I so choose? Interesting question. In conventional medicine, we have cosmetic surgery - we’ll give people breast implants, facelifts, and so on, and none of these procedures are medically necessary. (Setting aside, for the moment, cases of genuine disfigurement, which can raise serious quality-of-life issues.) We let people assume all the risks of major surgery (anesthesia, etc) in return for fairly modest gains. By a similar token - what would be wrong with something like “cosmetic psychotherapy”? If someone felt they’d be happier gay, or straight, or more/less of a thrill-seeker, or what-have-you - then why shouldn’t they have access to treatment from practitioners willing to provide it? It wouldn’t be _necessary_ treatment - but neither is most cosmetic surgery. And just as in cosmetic surgery, if we allowed this sort of psychological/psychiatric treatment, we’d expect there to be some kind of standards and accountability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-specific-procedure-for-anti-gay-therapy/465098.md?page=3)