Well, there’s there’s the letters from Paul that claim that having impure thoughts is equally as bad as acting on those thoughts. (no cite - no bible handy at work, go figure) This wasn’t emphasized in my catholic schooling; the focus was on actions. I always sort of assumed that the “impure thoughts” being confessed were a euphamism for masturbation. Which I was surprised to learn (last year when my husband converted) is also a sin. (they never covered that in school or in CCD class)
What about anti-straight therapy? I think I could use that. I’ve been married twice because I can’t really come up with any good excuses not to when I end up involved with a woman. I have all these kids eating up my paycheck, and my spouse keeps spending stuff on things that I, as a man, have no interest in. I watched “Brokeback Mountain” last night and those guys sure seemed happy whenever they got to be with each other, and just like real life the women dragged them down. If I could just get over this attraction to women and learn to appreciate men more, I’d be so much happier.
I’m not sure how “immutable” conflicts with “continuum”. Height exists on a continuum, as well, but there’s not much you can do to change it.
I’m sure most of those people in the middle could swear off men, or women, as appropriate. But stopping your action doesn’t stop your attraction.
Those middle folks aren’t the ones being pressured or enrolling in this sort of “therapy” though. Those people can choose to have sex with men or women, and if their community pressures them, they can capitulate without severe damage and live healthy and satisfied lives with people of the opposite gender. It’s the ones on the end of the Kinsey scale who suffer - who cannot be happy with the “appropriate” gender. Those are the ones far more likely to enroll in such efforts - ironically, the very category least likely to be mutable.
Height and sexual orientation isn’t a great analogy. One is a physical characteristic, the other behavioral a one. The real question here is threefold:
One, whether or not it’s ethical or safe to condition someone to alter their sexual orientation? The APA says no.
Two, when individuals and groups go against the APA’s recommendation and do attempt so-called “conversions” what kind of methodologies do they employ? Apparently, they use electroshock aversion techniques, prayer, and bastardized psychoanalytic methods among others.
Three, with what result? The answer to that question is harder to determine because the people releasing the information aren’t exactly using the scientific method. Also, there are many definitions of success. Is it merely stopping the behavior, or is it removing the impetus itself? Also, what is the recidivism rate? You’d be hard pressed to find reliable figures to any of these question.
Basically, you have some very bad behavioral science going on out there. The one the for certain is that they are harming people.
What you need is friendship. Get over the idea that it has to have anything do with having an orgasm.
Have more meaningful relationships (with men, if you prefer. So do I. ) and then also have meaningless sex with women.
It’s a lesson I wish I had learned long ago. But better late than never.
Whatever it is, like others have posted, it probably don’t work.
But don’t worry. Once biologists nail down the gene or other chemical factor in the womb that causes people to be born gay, then they can eventually prevent it or cure it medically. At first it will just provide people with the information they need to make an informed decision on whether to abort a gay foetus, like they do now with Down syndrome babies. But someday we’ll be able to move past that messiness and eradicate it completely.
But the better ones try to pass their bar exams.
Besides the point. The post I was replying to thought “continuum” and “immutable” were mutually exclusive categories. They’re not. They’re not in height, or in skin tone, or in temperment (which most experts agree is detectable and immutable from infancy onward) or hair length (well, you can alter that one shorter, I suppose, but you can’t make hair longer once it’s reached it’s full growth cycle, which is a different length for everyone), or, I would argue, sexual orientation.
And I’m not entirely sure one can, in humans, rightfully call sexual orientation a behavior. Orientation is a taste - whether genetically wired or capricious. Sex is a behavior. But a gay celibate is still gay, right? And a gay man can have sex with a woman (most of them), but that doesn’t make him straight, right? Behavior is observable, orientation isn’t.
Couldn’t this also be said about sex reassignment?
The common wisdom used to be that if someone was unhappy in the body they were born with, they just needed to deal with it: if you have a penis, you’re a man and you’ll always be a man, so go do manly things and stop wishing you were a woman.
But now we realize that although we can’t change that Y chromosome to an X, we can still intervene with surgery, hormones, and therapy instead of just telling people to accept the hand they were dealt, and they end up happier because of it. If it’s worth providing that to people who are upset about their sex, isn’t it worth providing something similar to people who are upset about their sexual orientation? Do we look down on that option because it’s impossible to make it work, or because we believe sexual orientation is fundamentally different from sexual/gender identity?
I know some people who perform this sort of therapy, so perhaps I can shed some light on how it works. Before I do, I will flatly state that I have not undergone any of this, so I can provide no statements about how effective it is or is not; however, I have heard numerous anecdotes about curing individuals of homosexuality and many other things. Also, I will try my best to present it as objectively as I can and I will do my best to keep my personal beliefs outside.
First, as far as I can tell, it’s generally refered to as ministry and not therapy and it’s generally performed by people who were trained by church staff and may have little or not formal training in psychology or any other disciplines. Second, one must keep in mind that one of the core beliefs of those performing and receiving this ministry is that homosexuality is a sin, it is not natural, and thus something that can be treated and cured. As a corollary, this methodology can be used to cure any number of similar sinful tendencies, behaviors, thoughts, etc. like gambling, alcoholism, and possibly even some psychological disorders.
The philosophy of this ministry is that these sinful behaviors or any number of other negative experiences have come about because of lies, deceptions, and such that we have believed for some time that have led us to these behaviors and experiences. Through a lot of prayer and discussion, the person can find what this lie is and God will reveal the truth and thus remove the basis of that behavior, and you will effectively be cured. One example I’ve heard related to this and homosexuality is that in some cases it’s caused by a childhood trauma (e.g., sexually molested by your father). This ministry is supposed to allow one to let God provide the truth, whether it may be.
So, to make the answer short, it involves a lot of talk therapy, prayer, and faith. FWIW, based on my understanding of it, I’ve seen and have taken part in similar practices, some based on philosophies from other faiths, particularly eastern religions, though this version is the only one I’ve seen make any sort of statement at all regarding homosexuality. So, I wouldn’t even say this sort of approach is unique to Chistianity, it’s just the one that specifically includes Chistian vices such as homosexuality.
Of course, the efficacy of any of this sort of therapy depends on whether you subscribe to whether homosexuality is a sin or not, whether you are religious or not, and any number of other things. FWIW, I have met one or two people who claim to be reformed homosexuals who have undergone that or something similar. At least from my perspective, they seem quite sincere in their belief that they were homosexual, no longer are, that that was what made the difference, and that they’re very happy to have done it.
In Romania, they just jailed you for 1 to 5 years, up until 1996 (7 years after the fall of the comunist regime). No therapy that I know of.
Get your legs lengthened. Potentially crippling if done badly and extremely painful - they break the leg and slowly extend it as it heals; used for lengthening one leg on someone born with one short leg as well as making people taller. Not really a good example for this discussion, since imperfect or not the process works; “gay cures” don’t.
Forced psychiatric “therapy” in some cases, I understand.
I’m not sure therapy of the kind being described here could do it, but I do believe humans more malleable than many seem happy to admit (this in no way implies that they should be coerced to try to change themselves).
It’s not something I would personally want, but I can imagine there being some process that would successfully result in me becoming a happily functional homosexual - or at least I’m not so insecure as to deny that possibility.
Other things about us are changeable, why not this?
(bolding mine)
I think “happily” and “functional” are the problem, not "homosexual’. Sure, with a baseball bat, your kneecaps, some nausea inducing drugs and some of the ol’ Ludwig Van, I can get you to think women are disgusting. I might even be able to convince your body to get an erection when you see a nubile young man. But does that equal happy and functional?
I think that depends on your mindset. If you’re a happy straight guy, and then you’re kidnapped and subjected to this treatment, you might be horrified. But if you’re unhappy being straight and want to change, you might be quite happy and functional afterward.
I don’t think they address sexuality issues, but the field of personal/ life/ executive coaching fills some of the roles you describe. For example, if someone wanted to work with a coach about being more of a risk taker, or more assertive, or more organized, coaches offer that service. Some licensed therapists also provide coaching services. There are also independent associations that offer coaching certifications. These obviously don’t carry the weight of the APA, but make some effort to establish standards.
FWIW, I once worked with a guy who was active in this type of Christianity-based conversion movement and claimed to be a reformed/cured former homosexual. At the time, he was married. The topic wasn’t something we talked about a lot. The one detail I do remember him sharing was that he and his program believed sexuality was like a dial, not like a switch. So there is at least one such program that does believe in moving people along the spectrum.
Humans appear to be much more malleable in some areas than others; this appears to be one of the least malleable. With Sufficiently Advanced Technology no doubt a change could be managed; I see no evidence that we have the ability.
I seriously doubt that; being traumatized into anything is likely to be, well, traumatic.
And someone with the kind of self hating mindset we are speaking of is unlikely to ever be happy, gay or straight.
Do you consider transgendered people to be “self hating”? How about anyone who undergoes cosmetic surgery? Anyone who undergoes therapy?
I don’t see how wanting to change some part of yourself, whether it’s physical or mental, is a sign of trouble.
No; they hate their bodies, not themselves. and it’s not the same thing; they dislike their body for biological reasons, not because some bigots told them to hate themselves from childhood.
The reason I said that they’d hate themselves “gay or straight” is because they’d be taught to hate themselves for one reason or another regardless of how they were born. They’d be thinking of themselves as monsters for being attracted to the opposite sex instead of the same one, or for masturbating, or for disagreeing with a point of doctrine, or for any number of other reasons.
You seem to be assuming that the only reason someone might want to change his sexual orientation is if bigots have told him since childhood to hate himself. That wasn’t part of the question, nor it is the only potential reason.