Carter/intelligence: “There is zero evidence that they’ve done anything.”
Bush/Rice et al.: “But they could if they wanted to!”
Both of those statements could be true simultaneously. But, if so, only one has significance, or even fundamental honesty. Anybody has the capacity could if they wanted to, after all. Note, while we’re at it, that Spokesweasel Fleischer has denied any claim that there’s evidence, just “concerns”. Well, as NBA great Derrick Coleman, likes to say, “Whoop-de-damn-do.”
Verdict: Typical neoconservative paranoid fear-and-hate-mongering. Go with the evidence, or lack of it.
And before this thread goes irretrievably into Commie-bashing, consider the possibility that Castro is fundamentally a nationalist, not a political ideologue, who used whatever name would get him foreign support during the Revolution without tying him to the patrons of the regime he was trying to overthrow. The USSR was the best choice, and “Communism” was a flag of convenience. Or so I’ve always understood it.
The Miami Cubans (Elian Gonzalez’ favorite baseball team) represent the property-owning class that flourished under Batista and fled the revolution, and have spent their energies since trying to get their real estate back, and increasingly ritualistically as they get older and more bitter. They do not fairly represent the interests of Cubans today, do they?
I looked at the AI site (as you mentioned them) and there didn’t, on face value, to be a whole lot of difference between modern day Cuba and the US. Compare and contrast:
"Police brutality, disputed shootings and ill-treatment in prisons and jails were reported. In May the UN Committee against Torture considered the initial report of the USA on implementation of the UN Convention against Torture. Eighty-five prisoners were executed in 14 states bringing to 683 the total number of people executed since 1976. Those executed included individuals who were children under 18 at the time of their crimes, and the mentally impaired."
Individuals and groups peacefully exercising their rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly continued to face repression. Some conditional releases of prisoners of conscience gave rise to hopes that the attitude of the Cuban government towards dissidents might be thawing, but new sentences and a serious escalation in repression during the closing months of 2000 discouraged such optimism. Journalists, political opponents and human rights defenders were subjected to severe harassment. Several hundred people, at least 13 of whom were prisoners of conscience, remained imprisoned for political offences. The authorities continued to use short term detention, house arrest, threats and harassment to stifle and discourage political dissent. The courts continued to apply the death penalty."
NB there were “at least” 8 deaths by firing squad in Cuba that year.
Maybe “Cuba is one of the very worst offenders in the Western Hemisphere”, or maybe it’s not. Care to elaborate ?
OK, my original post could have emphasised the role of the exiles to a greater extent. Of course I accept that they have a key role to play in all of this.
I also accept that there are human rights abuses in Cuba and that Castro’s regime should be tackled vigorously on the issue by the international community. This should be part of ‘ordinary’ foreign policy rather than the aggression and paranoia shown by the US down the years.
The survival of Castro’s regime has been under threat to varying degrees ever since its foundation. I have no doubt that Castro’s marriage of convenience with the Soviet bloc was the only thing that saved him in the early years. However, once that occurred there was little chance of rapprochement.
Since the fall of the eastern bloc, there have been economic reforms in Cuba. Gradually, the economy is being liberalised and tourism is at the cutting edge. Cuban families can now rent rooms to tourists, operate restaurants etc. International hotel chains have opened resorts. These are only small steps but Castro’s commitment to communism is far from absolute.
The position of the average cuban compares favourably with his/her latin american counterparts. There is full literacy, little crime and excellent healthcare. None of this was the case under Batista, when it was predominately an illiterate peasant society with few state supports. The secret police were brutal and the links to organised crime are well documented. I reiterate that politically and economically it could be much better for the average Cuban but don’t overstate the ‘tyranny and poverty’ thing.
I know this is impressionistic but repression just isn’t in the air in Cuba - it is a loud, vibrant place with limited respect for authority.
Again, I will say that you’ve come to the wrong place if you’re expecting a defence of totalitarian communism. I fully accept that there was a legitimate fight to be fought for much of the post-WW2 period. I also feel that US foreign policy during this period was marked by serious miscalculations which often involved propping up repressive regimes, loss of innocent life, unnecessary conflicts etc, all in the name of tackling a threat which wasn’t always there. And before you revert to your previous cheap shot - let me categorically say that this doesn’t in any way excuse or justify the actions of communist regimes during that period.
Cuba needs to be dealt with in the same way that communism was successfully tackled elsewhere - by engagement rather than demonisation.
If it were not for the Pinochets and Batistas of Latin America, there would have been NO danger of communism taking root there in the first place, because no one would support it.
Murdered in Central America by Donna W. and Edward T. Brett
Also read Walter LeFeber’s Inevitable Revolutions: the United States in Central America.
Think about it, december! What kind of countries went communist? Free democracies, like the US, Canada, the UK? Or was it countries with absolutism, totalitarian regimes, such as Tsarist Russia, Batista’s Cuba, Somoza’s Nicaragua? What about King Carol II’s Romania, or Yugoslavia under the Ustashe during WWII?
Or China back under the Imperials?
D’uh! People who are miserable, suffering, poor and oppressed are going to be desparate. They’re going to turn to whoever promises them a way out! Most of them don’t know jackshit about communism-all they know is that these people are helping them, by giving them food! They didn’t have freedom in the first place, they have no concept of what WE know as freedom. All they know is misery. Now, at least, they’re eating. They’re not watching their children die of malnutrition. Yes, there’s still oppression, but they’ve ALWAYS had oppression.
WHY don’t people realize that those who are oppressed and mistreated will turn to solutions like communism out of plain old DESPARATION? I would think that would be common sense!
Well, let’s see what Human Rights Watch has to say about Cuba:
From their summary document:
Yeah, that sounds JUST LIKE The United States.
The depth of people’s denial regarding the state of Cuba is astounding. Castro is an evil monster. Cuba is a brutal police state. Torture and exile (both internal and external) are common.
Manwithaplan said:
Let’s see how vibrant Human Rights Watch thinks it is:
So yes, you can be as vibrant as you want, as long as you don’t mind going to jail and being tortured for your trouble.
Manwiththeplan said:
Let’s try and give you the benefit of the doubt on this, and ignore the political repression and torture. How does Cuba fare in pure standard of living?
The per-capita income in Cuba last year was $1700, measured as Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). Here is the PPP of some other Latin American Countries:
Trinidad and Tobago: $7,208
Costa Rica: $5,812
Panama: $4,925
Dominican Republic: $4,227
El Salvador: $4008
Guatemala: $3,474
Nicaragua: $1,896
Cuba: $1700 *
Haiti: $1,279
*Data from the CIA World Factbook - World Bank doesn’t publish figures for Cuba
So, in terms of income, Cuba is second last, despite the fact that when Castro took power it was perhaps the wealthiest country in the region. The only two countries worse off are Haiti and Nicaragua, and Nicaragua has been wracked by civil wars and was also run by a communist government for a long time.
Cuba has huge natural advantages over many of these countries - a fairly well educated population, decent resources, close proximity to the U.S., good weather, and it started out with the best industrial base of any of these countries. It’s a basket case today because, quite simply, communism sucks.
By the way, HRW is in favor of lifting the embargo on Cuba, and so am I. I think opening markets there would be a liberalizing force. But I’m under no illusions about the nature of the Cuban government - it is an evil totalitarian state.
I’ve got this nagging feeling that the complete embargo slapped on Cuba by one of its (formerly) greatest trading partners which just happens to be one of the most important economic powers in the world maybe, just maybe, might contribute to a suffering economy.
This report shows that Cuba’s treatment of political prisoners in some cases rises to the level of torture, violating Cuba’s obligations under the Convention against Torture and under the Universal Declaration. The convention bars torture and “acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” and the Universal Declaration states that “no one shall be subjected to torture.” Cuba’s imposition of prolonged periods of incommunicado pretrial and post-conviction detention, beatings, and prosecutions of previously-tried political prisoners—where those practices result in severe physical or psychological pain orsuffering—constitute torture under the convention. Cuba also has failed to comply with its obligations under the convention to “take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction” and to “ensure that all acts of torture are offenses under its criminal law.”
Except that during most of this time, Cuba was receiving heavy subsidies from the Soviet Union. And Cuba still sells exports of about 1.8 billion to a lot of other countries including Canada and Russia.
And the other countries on the list have historically not had that much trade with the U.S. either. For example, El Salvador’s total exports are only 2.8 billion, with the U.S. being responsible for a little more than half.
None of these countries have been economic stars. Most of them have been poorly managed and have suffered through numerous civil wars and internal struggle. And Cuba has performed the worst of all of them since Castro took over.
When you look at those purchasing power statistics, you also have to keep in mind that Cuba operates on a completely different economic system. For example, Cubans have pretty good access to really good medical care…something which the people of the other countries listed most likely do not have. A Salvadorian with $4008 dollars to spend of widgets isn’t going to be very happy when she gets cancer and needs $5008 for treatment.
I’m not not making claims that living in Cuba is better than living in El Salvador (although I bet that it is), I’m just saying that looking at purchasing power might not be the best way to determine Cuba’s standard of living.
That said, it’s pretty obvious that the embargo is all a matter of embarassment. We thought we could force Castro out of there within seconds…decades later he’s still there. We couldn’t let him have the last word, could we? No matter how much suffering it causes?
That’s not the way it works. PPP includes allowances for state-provided goods and services. It’s basically the GNP divided by the number of citizens, and then adjusted to compensate for the fact that a dollar carries different amounts of purchasing power in different countries.
Unless communism can make medicine appear out of nothing, things like health care are factored into PPP.
GNP per capita must be examined in parallel with income distribution in order to ascertain the position of the average Jose. Income distribution figures are hard to come by (as Sam Stome says, the World Bank don’t publish stats for Cuba) but it may well be that it is more even in Cuba than in other latin american countries.
The point about heathcare is important. The figures on life expectancy, infant mortality, access to clean water etc. in the links below all point to a first class healthcare and public health system. Of course, Cuba cannot produce medicine out of thin air, but they do choose to devote resources to this area. The indicators for some of the other nations suggest that while the national pie may be bigger, you still die younger (and probably live with more ailments). The Cuban figures on literacy are also impressive.
Health and education are major contributors to quality of life in themselves and PPP doesn’t tell the whole story. But what Cubans need is the opportunity to build on this social infrastructure. That is currently denied to them by an archaic economic system (notwithstanding some reform and solid growth) and the unavailability of the biggest natural market for their goods. The removal of the embargo and the reform that would necessitate would give Cuba some chance of going down the road of transition to social democracy, with the baby not being thrown out with the bath water. The current US administration are doing nothing to bring this about and appear to be only interested in a ‘big bang’ approach, with the dangers that entails for ordinary Cubans.
Sam Stone, I believe you are a wee bit overwrought. Maybe a nice cup chamomile tea, eh? Bit of a nap. Your thunder from on high is admirable polemic, perhaps, but exaggerated out of proportion. Your characterization of Castro’s regime as “evil” is a bit much, don’t you think? Especially as we have our own sins of omission, as well as commision, to dwell upon. Unless, of course, assassination of foreign leaders is considered kosher in your book of international relation. Most nations have rather a dim view of that sort of thing, don’t you think?
And as far as moral turpitude impacts on economic relationships? Behold our somewhat anxiously engaged trading partner, Communist China. Are human rights better served in Hunan than Havana? Does political oppression wear a more benign face? I think not.