# What's the straight dope on honey from a vegan standpoint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050 "2011-04-03T17:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/21 "2011-04-04T02:33:36Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > There are [fruitarians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism) out there, who will only eat foods that can be harvested without killing the plant, like nuts, fruits (in the botanical sense, so this includes stuff like squash and eggplants), and beans. Except that of course the seeds \*are \*plants, and they are killing them. The only way to really do this would be to only eat vegetative parts of plants, like taking the carrot root and then re-planting the top. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/22 "2011-04-04T03:23:32Z")
Serious/dumb question: Are there vegan proscriptions against driving (or riding in) motor vehicles that burn fossil fuels? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/23 "2011-04-04T03:52:46Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > From the same site it seems **[the boxer](http://queenjane1235.blogspot.com/2011/02/mike-tyson-says-vegan-diet-makes-him.html)**, Mr. Mike Tyson, has recently become a vegan. So ears are off the menu? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/24 "2011-04-04T04:01:29Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Serious/dumb question: > > Are there vegan proscriptions against driving (or riding in) motor vehicles that burn fossil fuels? Not if that which perished to create the fuel died before one was born. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/25 "2011-04-04T04:01:41Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > So ears are off the menu? I was wondering if he eats ears of corn. I had heard of fruitarianism,from the movie Notting Hill,I think.I thought it was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/26 "2011-04-04T13:05:23Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not if that which perished to create the fuel died before one was born. Any vegans that eat carrion out there? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/27 "2011-04-04T15:25:13Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I don’t touch it, although I love it, but that’s only partly due to being vegan: other reasons are that there’s a severe crisis going on with bees right now, and I think that letting nature alone is the best strategy rather than continuing with commercial beekeeping; … Don’t know if the industry is different between Europe/ Germany and the US (or how much self-interest PR was at work there), but several years back discussing the bee crisis in the organic cycles\*, the facts were told that bee-keeping is going back each year, because it’s a lot of work for little gain, and there’s a hard competition with cheap honey from Mexico and similar places. Also it’s easier for commercial (non-organic) bee-keepers to just mix honey from different sources and call it “blossom honey” or similar, whereas the organic store has three shelves with a honey for each flower seperate, which is good for nature and health, but raises the cost high. So when the old bee-keepers retire, no young ones want to take their place; commercially, it’s not worthwile, and organic is difficult because you have to drive very far between the organic fields, and still have no guarantee of keeping GM or conventional pollen out. Coupled with the die-off and lack of hive space for wild bees means that bees are threatened, which is why there’s even a group that offers [bee sponsorships](http://www.beegood.de/) (German): you pay a fee of about 30 or 60 Euros per year to sponsor one bee hive, and each year you get one jar of honey from them (plus a nice certificate), because the pollination work is so important for all farmers and nature. - The organic farmers, as with most other things, are regulated more strictly not only in what poision they are not allowed to use when problems with pests appear, and what races/ breeds of animal they are allowed to use, but also are mandated to be “gentler” with the bees, which means leaving more honey for winter than conventional commercial bee-keepers are obliged to. Although again, things differ: a lot of old bee-keepers do this more for a hobby to be outside and because they like bees, and not for the money, so they, too, will not take almost all honey away. Besides, if the winter is colder than expected, the bees will suffer, so it bites you in the ass anyway. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/28 "2011-04-04T16:51:27Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not if that which perished to create the fuel died before one was born. If that were the rule, then vegans would be happy to munch on [frozen mammoth](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2725/prehistoric-its-whats-for-dinner). ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/29 "2011-04-04T17:43:16Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > So ears are off the menu? Perhaps he’s also a humanitarian. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/30 "2011-04-04T19:35:23Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > I know vegans don’t eat honey, but what is the truth behind honey production? Does it negatively impact the bees? I really don’t know anything about the process. What’s the rationale for avoiding it? If your “rule” is “don’t eat or wear anything made of or produced by animals” then honey is out - regardless of if it negatively impacts the bees - just like milk and cheese. But there are all sorts of vegetarians and vegans with all sorts of motivations and rationales. For the political exploitation of their labor (bees read a lot of Marx - personally, I think they’d rather be exploited than patronized :D), to health reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/31 "2011-04-04T19:47:43Z")
> [@Pandoranoid](#): > > I was told that some companies will do things to the queen bee’s body to stress her-basically, torture her-which in turn makes all the other bees produce honey faster, because that’s their knee-jerk response to a sick queen. I dunno if it’s true; it was just some kid at a health food store who told me that. This sounds ridiculous. Can anyone back this up? I’ve looked into honey harvesting and I’ve seen videos of the entire process. As far as I can tell, the bees are living a relatively normal life, just in a decidedly more rectangular home than they’d have in the wild. The farmers blow smoke on the bees when opening the hives to mask “swarm” alert scents to keep them calm, but it hasn’t been shown to negatively impact them in any way. Plus, they do still eat some of their own honey, so the points about feeding them _only_ HFCS as a honey substitute is misleading. The health of the bees are a high priority in honey farming, as opposed to cows, pigs, etc., in the meat industry. To conflate the suffering of those cows and others to bees in apiaries is pretty far-fetched. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/32 "2011-04-05T00:20:04Z")
> [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](#): > > This sounds ridiculous. Can anyone back this up? No, I can’t address specifically stressing the queen to make the bees produce more honey. > [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](#): > > I’ve looked into honey harvesting and I’ve seen videos of the entire process. As far as I can tell, the bees are living a relatively normal life, just in a decidedly more rectangular home than they’d have in the wild. The farmers blow smoke on the bees when opening the hives to mask “swarm” alert scents to keep them calm, but it hasn’t been shown to negatively impact them in any way. Plus, they do still eat some of their own honey, so the points about feeding them _only_ HFCS as a honey substitute is misleading. > > The health of the bees are a high priority in honey farming Well, that’s a bit surprising, as a major topic of conversation the past few years has been Colony Collapse Disorder. One of the contributing factors cited by the [EPA](http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/about/intheworks/honeybee.htm) is “bee management stress,” and I distinctly recall numerous articles citing the (relatively new) practice of trucking hives to different locations, to earn additional money, as a possible cause, saying that trucked hives tended to experience loss of a certain percentage of bees. (Point 4 in [this site](http://insects.about.com/od/antsbeeswasps/tp/CausesofCCD.htm), “Migratory beekeeping.”) None of that directly responds to your initial question, but it does, I feel, cast into doubt the idea that modern commercial beekeepers are necessarily solicitous of the bees’ welfare in the way you imply. They could be in it for the short-term buck just like so many other people. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/33 "2011-04-05T00:32:41Z")
As I understand it, the Jains are kind of the model citizen for the vegan crowd. As I know, the Jains do not eat money. I always found it interesting that Jains as a class in India are known for being astute middlemen and traders. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/34 "2011-04-05T01:56:01Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > As I know, the Jains do not eat money. Well that’s good–money’s filthy! ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/35 "2011-04-05T02:39:11Z")
In retrospect of conversations and forum postings of various food restricting folks, I run up against the hard fact that all humans are consumers, not producers. Regardless of the dietary paths taken, all human nutrition relies on the consumption of other living or once living organisms. Be it animal (which must eat plants or eat animals that have eaten plants), or plant (a living organism), all food sources are based ultimately on living organisms (plants) fixing the sun’s energy into molecules that can be utilized by other organisms. We consume those living organisms because we can’t fix the sun’s energy ourselves…that is our nature…and our role in the whole of the environment. Not to say that we should mistreat animals or plants, but we are what we are. (As a side note, I am a botanist by training. And I eat and love plants.) My head reels… ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/36 "2011-04-05T02:52:03Z")
I’ve been told that generally a few bees die with every honey harvest, so there’s that. On the other hand, I’ve never really heard vegetarians or vegans get too concerned about all the little field animals who didn’t move their houses to the lee of the stone before the harvest - if you’re worried about animals dying _numerically_ you’d do much better to eat grass fed beef than vegetables from anywhere but your own back yard. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/37 "2011-04-05T03:04:10Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I’ve been told that generally a few bees die with every honey harvest, so there’s that. > > On the other hand, I’ve never really heard vegetarians or vegans get too concerned about all the little field animals who didn’t move their houses to the lee of the stone before the harvest - if you’re worried about animals dying _numerically_ you’d do much better to eat grass fed beef than vegetables from anywhere but your own back yard. +1 for the NIMH reference… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/38 "2011-04-05T04:07:42Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > On the other hand, I’ve never really heard vegetarians or vegans get too concerned about all the little field animals who didn’t move their houses to the lee of the stone before the harvest Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim’rous beastie, O, what a panic’s in thy breastie! Thou need na start awa sae hasty Wi bickering brattle! I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee, Wi’ murdering pattle. I’m truly sorry man’s dominion Has broken Nature’s social union, An’ justifies that ill opinion Which makes thee startle At me, thy poor, earth born companion An’ fellow mortal! … Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin! It’s silly wa’s the win’s are strewin! An’ naething, now, to big a new ane, O’ foggage green! An’ bleak December’s win’s ensuin, Baith snell an’ keen! Thou saw the fields laid bare an’ waste, An’ weary winter comin fast, An’ cozie here, beneath the blast, Thou thought to dwell, Till crash! the cruel coulter past Out thro’ thy cell. That wee bit heap o’ leaves an’ stibble, Has cost thee monie a weary nibble! Now thou’s turned out, for a’ thy trouble, But house or hald, To thole the winter’s sleety dribble, An’ cranreuch cauld. But Mousie, thou art no thy lane, In proving foresight may be vain: The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men Gang aft agley, An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, For promis’d joy! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/39 "2011-04-05T12:01:13Z")
Good old Bobby! He always _sounds_ fun, even when you have no idea what he’s gabbling about… ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050/40 "2011-04-05T13:07:15Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > On the other hand, I’ve never really heard vegetarians or vegans get too concerned about all the little field animals who didn’t move their houses to the lee of the stone before the harvest - if you’re worried about animals dying _numerically_ you’d do much better to eat grass fed beef than vegetables from anywhere but your own back yard. This point is brought up repeatedly in threads on veganism/vegetarianism, and of course it’s no more true than an urban myth about a guy with a hook hand. “Grass fed beef” isn’t fed in some untouched wilderness; small animals are also killed in preparing hay and pasturage, in setting fenceposts, cattle drives, and so on. Furthermore, slaughterhouses aren’t going to tolerate rats – they’re going to kill them. “Grass fed beef” is a tiny subfraction of modern meat production; statistically, the vast majority of production is now modern intensive animal husbandry which _relies_ on feeding grain for a substantial portion of the cows’ lives to fatten the cattle up for slaughter. That grain is produced in fields threshed mechanically – killing small animals as described in the passage quoted above – but it requires MORE grain to produce a pound of beef than a pound of grain, so you’re killing _more_ of the small animals _and_ the cow. Lastly, every vegan I know is concerned about little animals, even ones killed during a harvest. But the _point_ of vegan living (and it’s not just diet, by the way) is not to adhere to some unattainable, hypocritical standard of perfection of the sort this myth claims to deflate – it’s to do as little harm to others as you can, in practical life. Vegans aren’t going to stop eating and wither away ethereally. But they are going to avoid hurting animals unnecessarily – and the modern world makes it pretty easy to live comfortably while doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-honey-from-a-vegan-standpoint/577050.md?page=3)