# What's the Straight Dope on Obama and Ayers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967 "2008-09-24T12:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/41 "2008-09-24T17:38:23Z")
“mind-controller” “anti-American instructor” “terrorist sensei” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/42 "2008-09-24T17:48:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My point is that **leander** made the bare assertion that the article was not accurate. What we seem to have discovered is that, for those parts capable of being established as fact, it is completely accurate. You just don’t like the conclusions. Indeed and that is ultimately where the problem lies. For instance: Franklin Roosevelt associated with Josef Stalin. (fact) Therefore, Roosevelt was a pinko commie bastard. (assertion) Bit of a reach you ask me. Despite this association with Ayers can you point to any examples of Obama espousing radical, terrorist policies? Have any of his actions ever indicated any such thing? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/43 "2008-09-24T17:48:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you get ALL your talking points from Sean Hannity? Uh…my ‘talking points’ come from Wikipedia and BrainGlutton’s previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/44 "2008-09-24T17:50:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unless you can show where somebody associated with this thread, the article in question, or the McCain campaign is saying that Obama is a terrorist, then your rather feeble comeback about twins is a a strawman. > > Regards, > Shodan You appear to be arguing with something that exists only in your own mind. I’ve never claimed that anyone said Obama is a terrorist, in fact I’ve never mentioned the word terrorist. You pulled that out of thin air. My only claim was that an author’s conclusions can be completely false even is their premises are true. For some unexplicable reason you turned that into an argument about terrorism. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > In point of fact, I do not have red hair. ??? I never said you did. You guys should try to argue the actuals statements made rather than ones that just pop into your head. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/45 "2008-09-24T17:53:23Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Have _you_ ever stood in the living room of a person who tried to blow up _anything_, let alone the Pentagon? Barack Obama has. I’ve never been in a room with Senator McCain, but I’m pretty sure he dropped a fair number of bombs on North Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/46 "2008-09-24T17:54:02Z")
Nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/47 "2008-09-24T17:58:20Z")
Since none of the conservatives here have articulated this position (I have no idea why), let’s toss [this guy’s](http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2008/09/obama-and-ayers.html) opinion out there: > [@Tom Maguire](#): > > “And the suggestion is not that Obama endorses Ayers’ domestic terrorism; the suggestion is that Obama and Ayers share a hard-left educational philosophy, that Obama has an odd taste in friends, and that Obama has been lying about his past.” Myself, my reactions are “so what,” “so what,” and “not really/unproven.” But I thought I’d at least get it out there as a possible talking point. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/48 "2008-09-24T18:03:56Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Uh…my ‘talking points’ come from Wikipedia and BrainGlutton’s previous post. I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to **Weirddave**. That “launched his political career from Bill Ayres’ living room” line is a direct Sean Hannity mantra. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/49 "2008-09-24T18:04:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which of the factual assertions of the article do you believe are untrue? > > Are you asserting [ul][li]That the CAC was not founded by Ayers? [_]That Obama was never chairman of the board? [_]That Ayers was never an _ex officio_ member of the board that Obama chaired?[\*]Etc.?[/ul]If you are merely asserting that one should not draw any conclusions from what has been discovered about Obama’s background, that is one thing. If you are disputing the facts as asserted, that is another.[/li] > Regards, > Shodan 1. The CAC did not "pour more than $100 million into the hands of “radical education activists.” (whatever the fuck those are). It gave millions to 210 different public schools and public school supporters in Chicago to help children learn and have better lives. 2. “The CAC was the brainchild of Bill Ayers,” While Ayers wrote the grant application, he was not, in any way, the sole “brainchild” of the CAC. It actually started with the decentralization of schools in Chicago in 1998 and involved numerous people, including, most importantly, Anne Hallett and Warren Chapman. 3. “Barack Obama’s first run for the Illinois State Senate was launched at a 1995 gathering at Mr. Ayers’s home.” That one meeting did not “launch” Obama’s first run for Senate, it had been planned for awhile before then. 4. “Yet documents in the CAC archives make clear that Mr. Ayers and Mr. Obama were partners in the CAC.” A gross simplification. It’s like saying the janitor of the GM plant and Bill Ford are partners. They were both involved in the same program, yes, but pretending they were “partners” is more rhetorical bullshit. 5. “In early 1995, Mr. Obama was appointed the first chairman of the board, which handled fiscal matters. Mr. Ayers co-chaired the foundation’s other key body, the “Collaborative,” which shaped education policy.” There were actually 3, not 2, parts to the CAC. Kurtz, as he is wont to do, is wrong. 6. “Yet the archives show that, along with Ms. Leff and Ms. Graham, Mr. Ayers was one of a working group of five who assembled the initial board in 1994.” Ayers was one of 5 people who OK’ed Obama, but he had nothing to do with getting Obama to that point. 7. “Mr. Ayers founded CAC and was its guiding spirit. No one would have been appointed the CAC chairman without his approval.” More bullshit. The CAC was not Mr. Ayers’ to found, he was one person among hundreds, involved in a program that tried to help public schools. And he wasn’t the “guiding spirit”. The CAC was founded according to the principles of, and was run pursuant to, the Annenberg Challenge. If you’re interested, you can read about it [by clicking here](http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/downloads/p62.pdf). It includes the principles and goals of the Annenberg Challenge, which, oddly enough, Ayers had nothing to do with. 1. “The CAC’s agenda flowed from Mr. Ayers’s educational philosophy, which called for infusing students and their parents with a radical political commitment, and which downplayed achievement tests in favor of activism.” Another lie. The CAC was bound to use the principles and goals of the Annenberg Challenge. Read the link. 2. “CAC translated Mr. Ayers’s radicalism into practice.” Again, Ayers had nothing to do with setting the principles and goals of the Annenberg Challenge. 3. “Proposals from groups focused on math/science achievement were turned down. Instead CAC disbursed money through various far-left community organizers, such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (or Acorn)” Not every proposal focused on math/science was turned down, just as not every partner was a “far-left community organizers”. Almost a third were Chicago colleges and universities. Another quarter were arts and cultural institutions like the Chicago Syphony and Suzuki school for young musicians. And another quarter were education services and education reform groups. Only 15% were “community organizations” and oddly enough ACORN wasn’t listed on them. [Click here for the rest of the article](http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/downloads/p62II.pdf) You know, I’d keep going, but at this point, it’s just kinda academic. Kurtz’s “opinion” piece is just the same recycled garbage, with a few lies thrown in for good measure. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/50 "2008-09-24T18:22:01Z")
Dance, puppets, dance! Make those excuses, deny those facts, spin like a motherfucker! Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/51 "2008-09-24T18:23:00Z")
“anarchist puppetmaster” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/52 "2008-09-24T18:29:59Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Dance, puppets, dance! > Make those excuses, deny those facts, spin like a motherfucker! > > Pathetic. Dave, I like you. But you’re being a jagoff with idiotic, substanceless posts like this. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/53 "2008-09-24T18:32:08Z")
It may all be true. _shrug_ You know what? I don’t give a flying fuck. Nobody under the age of 50 who isn’t a wingnut gives a damn about Ayers, the Weathermen, radical leftists, or the 60s. Obama is a demonstrably better presidential candidate than John McCain. That’s all I care about. If Obama had consorted with Zero Mostel, Eugene V. Debs and Squeeky Fromme, I would not care. All I care about is keeping a Republican out of the White House for the next indeterminate number of years. Give me candidates with firmly demonstrated ties to the Sierra Club, the American Communist Party and the Weather Underground. I don’t give a shit! As long as they’re Democrats (or, failing that, at least competent and not in the pocket of people who are better off than I’ll ever be and determined to be more so by walking on my fucking back). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/54 "2008-09-24T18:34:46Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > ??? I never said you did. You guys should try to argue the actuals statements made rather than ones that just pop into your head. That part was a joke. Love, Sarah (who actually has brown hair) ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/55 "2008-09-24T18:37:36Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > OMG! They served on the same board? Get a rope! :rolleyes: [Someone took you seriously in OR](http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hlnR7kQP7tXQKA0872BAweYKqPFQD93D6CUG0) ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/56 "2008-09-24T18:41:22Z")
Liberals never fail to amuse me; Bush called Ken Lay “Kenny Boy” so, of course, that meant he was at least partially responsible for the collapse of Enron. But Barack Obama spending his early political career working alongside a domestic terrorist who tried to blow up the Pentagon? Well, that means _nothing_! Move along, folks. Nothing to see here!:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/57 "2008-09-24T18:43:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It may all be true. _shrug_ > > You know what? I don’t give a flying fuck.). At least you’re honest about it. Gotta respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/58 "2008-09-24T18:44:11Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > But, again, which term would you prefer I use to describe their relationship? **stolichnaya** is hitting them out of the park: “mind-controller” “anti-American instructor” “terrorist sensei” - _my personal favorite_ “anarchist puppetmaster” They all sound about as credible as “political mentor.” So stick with that one, if you must. Just as long as we know where you’re coming from (which we do). ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/59 "2008-09-24T18:50:55Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > But Barack Obama spending his early political career working alongside a domestic terrorist who tried to blow up the Pentagon? Well, that means _nothing_! Okay, pretty please, with sugar on top, will you tell _us_ what _you_ think it means? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967/60 "2008-09-24T18:52:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > **stolichnaya** is hitting them out of the park: > > “mind-controller” > “anti-American instructor” > “terrorist sensei” - _my personal favorite_ > “anarchist puppetmaster” > > They all sound about as credible as “political mentor.” So stick with that one, if you must. Just as long as we know where you’re coming from (which we do). You honestly cannot seriously describe Obama’s relationship with former domestic terrorist Bill Ayers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-obama-and-ayers/464967.md?page=4)